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thomas

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[Music]

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you seem particularly triggered right

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now can you tell me what happened

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i've had dreams that weren't just dreams

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that's right he's back

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neil's back the matrix four is rebooted

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maybe neo can straighten all this out

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speaking of coming back we have a just

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terrific interview with a guy i have so

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much respect for so so smart resverk new

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book the simulated universe and mit

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computer scientist explores parallel

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universes the simulation hypothesis

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quantum computing and the mandela effect

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i've been doing a number of shows lately

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on computing because i think it just

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fundamentally ties into really all the

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stuff we're talking about but not

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everyone is

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always making that connection so i feel

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the need to do it riz of course

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certainly fits in that category as

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you'll hear in this interview

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here are some clips i do hope you stick

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around for the whole thing i think it's

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really good check it out

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now

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in computation we try to figure out

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which of those

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values of this graph are worth

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traversing right and so you can think of

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any

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process which is a series of choices

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as a multiverse and that's kind of the

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the idea that i'm putting forward

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whether they are physical or not becomes

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irrelevant because they become physical

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only when we render them

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meaning when we choose to explore that

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path

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okay let me go all skeptical on you

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are you stretching the metaphor too far

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if we just start down

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the path of consciousness is fundamental

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well i i think the metaphor fits pretty

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well you know i mean i i spent a lot of

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time with the

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near-death experience and you know many

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of them report

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uh

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that they were able to

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look back in what's called a life review

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right and so they were able to

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kind of go back and view the events and

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many of them describe it

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as a room with a big projector right

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and so they're using this metaphor and

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it's like replaying

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something that has been recorded

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but if you get past that and you look at

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the accounts overwhelmingly

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statistically number one thing

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love number one thing connection number

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one thing

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spirituality that

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doesn't really conform very well well

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yeah it depends which metaphor you're

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using and exactly how you're using it i

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mean for me i think let's use a

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different metaphor instead of a video

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game

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let's use social networks right which

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people use all the time today and

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creates lots of angst but

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why do we use social networks we create

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an identity online but primarily

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what makes a social network different

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from a website

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is the social part of it i would say the

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reason to be here perhaps is

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relationship right it's to to give

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ourselves the experience of having

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relationship with different parts

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of consciousness which we see as other

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people

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which eventually may be all connected

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karis

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and today

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well we have a good one

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resverk is back to talk about his new

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book the simulated multiverse

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in case you don't remember who riz is he

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is like this super duper smart mit

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computer scientist we won't even mention

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the mba from stanford

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he's also an author filmmaker silicon

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valley entrepreneur and investor and

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we're not going to talk about that but

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if that is at all interesting to you

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he has some absolutely terrific books on

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that topic

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from this very interesting perspective

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that he has as a very successful

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game

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designer programmer maker you know i got

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30 million downloads on his games i

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think while he was still in his 20s or

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something so

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he he really has this incredible

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background but what we're really going

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to talk about today

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is this new book the simulated

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multiverse so riz first of all welcome

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back thanks for thanks for coming back

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on

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sure nice to be with you again

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so i reached out to you because we've

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been doing a number of shows on

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ai quantum computing and

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the general angst that so many people

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are feeling about technology and

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technology advancement as it pops up all

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over the place

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so

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who better to talk to about that than

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not just the game master but the game

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maker himself uh

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are we living in a matrix that's what we

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well as you know that's you know my last

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book the simulation hypothesis was about

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that idea that we may be living inside

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some kind of technologically constructed

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reality

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and uh you know very akin to what was

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shown in the movie of about the matrix

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and i was

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you know with that book i was hoping to

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tie it to

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uh not just you know the development of

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video game technology which is the area

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where i've spent you know good amount of

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my career as an entrepreneur and as an

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investor but also relating it to some of

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the spiritual traditions you know from

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thousands of years ago and talk about

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you know the matrix as a metaphor right

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uh whereas if you look at you know the

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religions they all use different

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metaphors you know in buddhism the

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metaphor of the dream

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uh is quite strong and that we are

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living in a dream and you wake up from

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the dream and of course shakespeare you

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know used the analogy or the metaphor of

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a stage play because that's what he did

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as did the leela's

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vedas which uh had the leela which was

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the grand play in the hindu vedas you

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know 5 000 years ago or so uh and so you

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know my point is that if any of those

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folks were alive today they would use

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the metaphor of a video game uh which is

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like an interactive film script where

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the script can change based upon the

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choices of the characters along the way

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and so you know that's one axis of this

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whole thing is is using the development

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of technology to look at

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you know the world in a different way

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but yeah my answer last time was that i

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think it's more likely than not that we

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are living in some kind of a simulated

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reality

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right so i didn't want to

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that's great that you did that i didn't

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want to totally roll this back to the

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last book but now that you mention it i

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think it's good

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what does introducing

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kind of the multiple timelines

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multiverse

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how does that change things

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and

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i guess

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sure well you know when i finished the

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first book i thought i was uh you know

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had been down the the rabbit hole and

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was pretty much done with the simulation

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stuff or at least the big questions

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resulting from simulations for a while

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and i could go back to

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my career in silicon valley and academia

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and then you know i had a lunch with a

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friend a friend of mine from who had

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just started working at google so i was

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living in mountain view at california

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which is right down the road from google

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headquarters and he had just flown in

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from boston

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and you know we got to talking about the

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simulation hypothesis and he was an mit

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alum as well so of course we were

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talking about technology and and how

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these things could be built and then you

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know he said well you know have you

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looked at this thing called the mandela

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effect i said yeah you know i've heard

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of it but

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you know i kind of dismissed it as many

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people in the scientific community did

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maybe it's just a case of faulty memory

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and he said well you know the simulation

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idea is actually the most

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likely or interesting explanation for

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something like the mandela effect

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and for those who don't know

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many of your listeners have probably

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heard of it but the mandela effect is

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the idea that a subgroup of people a

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minority

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remember certain events happening a

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different way

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from the consensus reality so the name

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comes aft comes because of nelson

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mandela who some say die they remember

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that he died in prison in the 1980s of

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course

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we all know that not to be the case if

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you just look it up on the internet

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or if you lived through those events

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mandela was released from prison in the

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90s became the first black president of

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south africa

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and then he died in 2013 and yet many

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people remembered not just that he died

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but they remember

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you know a whole bunch of festivities

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around his funeral

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including his wife speaking

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and so these are very specific memories

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and uh

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you know mainstream science dismisses

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this as well these are just you know a

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case of faulty memory perhaps it was

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this other black leader from south

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africa that died in the 80s and

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therefore people are confusing the two

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but it turns out there's a whole series

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of events like this some some of which

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are small some of which are movie lines

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some of which are big events

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and so

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in my case

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i thought well that's kind of

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interesting why don't i you know spend a

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little more time looking into it uh and

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when i had written the first book i had

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interviewed

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the wife of science fiction writer

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philip k dick

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uh sort of famous within certain circle

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speech in mets france in 1977 saying

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that we are living in a

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computer-programmed reality and the only

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clue we have to it is when some variable

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is altered and so i had you know talked

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to her and i thought this was a fun way

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to talk about the matrix because you

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know supposedly the the wachowskis who

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created the matrix were inspired by the

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work of philip k dick and i thought you

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know it was just a fun way to talk about

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the idea well after you know having my

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conversation with my friend at google i

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went back to my conversation with tessa

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and then i went back and re-watched what

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philip k dick was saying back in the 70s

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and i read his whole speech and i

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watched the video and it turns out the

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00:10:18,949 --> 00:10:17,440
first part of that statement which is

285
00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:18,959
the one that most of us focus on that

286
00:10:22,790 --> 00:10:20,240
we're living in a computer program

287
00:10:24,870 --> 00:10:22,800
reality was not the most important part

288
00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:24,880
of his speech what he said was that some

289
00:10:31,030 --> 00:10:27,839
variables would change and then it would

290
00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:31,040
be run again and so you know he said we

291
00:10:35,990 --> 00:10:33,120
would have uh this

292
00:10:38,949 --> 00:10:36,000
impression of reliving the same events

293
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:38,959
again and again and he gave the

294
00:10:44,069 --> 00:10:41,040
the phenomenon of deja vu

295
00:10:46,870 --> 00:10:44,079
as evidenced that this was happening and

296
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:46,880
he came to believe that we actually had

297
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:48,640
multiple timelines and that there were

298
00:10:54,710 --> 00:10:52,000
people or entities changing small little

299
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,720
variables uh and then re-running the

300
00:10:57,990 --> 00:10:56,399
events in in his book the man in the

301
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:58,000
high castle and we might have talked

302
00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:59,360
about this last time but you know he

303
00:11:03,110 --> 00:11:00,640
actually believed

304
00:11:05,269 --> 00:11:03,120
that that was a real timeline where

305
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:05,279
germany and japan won the war and for

306
00:11:09,829 --> 00:11:07,120
whatever reason that was not an optimal

307
00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:09,839
timeline so they quote unquote

308
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:11,839
rewound the timeline changed some

309
00:11:16,389 --> 00:11:14,399
variables and re-ran it again and that's

310
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:16,399
how we ended up in the current timeline

311
00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:19,120
and so this idea of a simulation you

312
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,959
know why do we run simulations to see

313
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:22,480
what will happen

314
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:24,000
and how do we do that we change

315
00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:25,600
variables and we run them again and

316
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,519
again that's how we predict the weather

317
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:29,200
that's how we predict many things these

318
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:30,320
days

319
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,640
and so this idea you know kind of lodged

320
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:34,560
in my mind that said

321
00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:36,240
kind of like you know the quote from i

322
00:11:39,910 --> 00:11:38,320
think it was voltaire who said when

323
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:39,920
somebody asked him do we live multiple

324
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:42,000
times and you know i guess he believed

325
00:11:45,509 --> 00:11:43,120
we did but he said it's no more

326
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:45,519
surprising that we live multiple times

327
00:11:49,829 --> 00:11:47,600
than it is that we live once

328
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:49,839
and so it occurred to me that if they're

329
00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:51,600
in a computer simulation it would be no

330
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:53,600
more surprising for us to have multiple

331
00:11:58,150 --> 00:11:56,000
runs of the simulation than just one in

332
00:11:59,990 --> 00:11:58,160
fact it would make much more sense and

333
00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:00,000
explain a lot of the

334
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,600
the weirdness of quantum physics that i

335
00:12:05,590 --> 00:12:03,120
came across during my research and

336
00:12:06,949 --> 00:12:05,600
simulation so anyway that's you know a

337
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:06,959
little bit of a story there but that

338
00:12:11,350 --> 00:12:09,200
that's kind of what got me back down the

339
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,360
rabbit hole and really exploring this

340
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:13,279
idea of a multiverse in multiple

341
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:14,639
timelines

342
00:12:19,269 --> 00:12:17,040
great so we might have our own multiple

343
00:12:21,430 --> 00:12:19,279
timelines in this little discussion

344
00:12:24,150 --> 00:12:21,440
which will be great i think it's

345
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:24,160
so interesting the perspective that you

346
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,480
bring the gamer perspective and i want

347
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:28,399
to talk about that i want to talk about

348
00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:29,680
that

349
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,839
in all aspects of life as an

350
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:33,600
entrepreneur what that brings to the

351
00:12:38,870 --> 00:12:36,720
table as a computer scientist even

352
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:38,880
spirituality what the gamer kind of

353
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,240
perspective

354
00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:42,720
brings maybe we ought to uh

355
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:44,320
maybe we ought to go there

356
00:12:47,430 --> 00:12:45,600
right now since we're going to have

357
00:12:49,110 --> 00:12:47,440
multiple timelines and i can come back

358
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:49,120
and hit all those other points but have

359
00:12:54,069 --> 00:12:51,200
you ever thought about that as you've

360
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:54,079
gone through your career

361
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,639
have you ever thought you know i kind of

362
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,320
look at things

363
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,399
a little bit differently in it all i

364
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:02,480
look at things kind of like a game do

365
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,519
you does that resonate with you or no

366
00:13:10,870 --> 00:13:08,160
i it does because uh

367
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:10,880
especially through my research in this

368
00:13:16,310 --> 00:13:14,160
area you know the more i looked into it

369
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:16,320
you know the more i began to see that

370
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:18,000
this was

371
00:13:22,949 --> 00:13:18,720
an

372
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:22,959
explain

373
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,279
so many different aspects of life and

374
00:13:28,949 --> 00:13:27,279
you know i've spent a lot of time with

375
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,959
scientists i've spent a lot of time with

376
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:30,720
engineers and technologists and i've

377
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:32,560
spent a lot of time with people who

378
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:34,720
would classify as mystics

379
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:36,800
uh you know who are always

380
00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:38,160
exploring different states of

381
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:40,720
consciousness and i realized that this

382
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:43,519
is a way to really connect all these

383
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,560
threads together uh and so that's why i

384
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,320
became so enamored with it that's why i

385
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:50,160
decided to write the book

386
00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:52,560
the first book and the second book but

387
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:54,560
during that process you know people ask

388
00:13:58,389 --> 00:13:56,880
me well so what does this mean for me

389
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,399
you know if i'm just a character at a

390
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:01,199
game does that mean that nothing matters

391
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:02,880
and i say well no

392
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:04,720
it's not quite like that i mean the way

393
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:06,079
that i view it is

394
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,519
if you think of how video games are

395
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:09,360
constructed today

396
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,480
we have characters we have avatars that

397
00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:15,120
represent you and then the avatars have

398
00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:17,440
certain story lines and certain

399
00:14:21,509 --> 00:14:19,760
characteristics uh you know it's kind of

400
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,519
like in the old days we used to play

401
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,440
dungeons and dragons on a sheet of paper

402
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:25,519
and we used to have different attributes

403
00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:27,040
for the characters like strength

404
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:29,920
charisma intelligence you know all these

405
00:14:34,629 --> 00:14:31,760
different things it turns out each

406
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:34,639
character was slightly different uh and

407
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:36,160
we'd have story lines for those

408
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:37,279
characters

409
00:14:41,269 --> 00:14:39,120
and i believe that that happens to us in

410
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:41,279
this life each of us has you know

411
00:14:44,710 --> 00:14:43,279
different strengths different

412
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,720
proclivities there are things that we

413
00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:47,120
are inclined to do like i always knew i

414
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:49,279
was going to be a

415
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:51,600
computer software entrepreneur and

416
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:53,519
eventually become a writer even when i

417
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:55,360
was like 10 years old now how did i know

418
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:58,079
that it was just the sense that i had in

419
00:15:02,150 --> 00:14:59,600
the back of my mind

420
00:15:04,389 --> 00:15:02,160
that was the story line that i had

421
00:15:06,629 --> 00:15:04,399
chosen to run and if you look at how

422
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:06,639
games are constructed today not only do

423
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:08,959
you have these big story lines

424
00:15:12,790 --> 00:15:10,720
which are based upon the character you

425
00:15:13,750 --> 00:15:12,800
choose but then you have a lot of

426
00:15:16,629 --> 00:15:13,760
smaller

427
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:16,639
quests and challenges and achievements

428
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:18,000
along the way

429
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,160
and if we didn't have those then you

430
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:22,560
know the game would get kind of boring

431
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:24,839
and you know if the game got to be too

432
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:27,839
easy uh you know it wouldn't be fun

433
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:30,240
anymore right and so you know there's

434
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:30,959
the

435
00:15:38,629 --> 00:15:37,199
nolan bushnell who's kind of you know

436
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:38,639
the grandfather of the video game

437
00:15:43,110 --> 00:15:40,800
industry you know and he said it was he

438
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:43,120
wanted something that was easy to play

439
00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:46,160
or easy to learn but difficult to master

440
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:47,519
right and he said that's what keeps the

441
00:15:51,269 --> 00:15:49,279
game interesting that's what keeps you

442
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:51,279
coming back again and again and i think

443
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:53,040
we can view life that way right there

444
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:55,199
it's easy to play but it's not so easy

445
00:15:59,829 --> 00:15:57,920
to master and so if we look at the

446
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,839
challenges that we have in line which

447
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:01,440
many of us do especially as we get older

448
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,639
we realize

449
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:05,040
you know life isn't all fun and games

450
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,959
even if it is a game

451
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,800
there are challenges along the way and

452
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:11,120
without those challenges uh just like a

453
00:16:15,509 --> 00:16:14,079
movie that has doesn't have a lot of

454
00:16:17,269 --> 00:16:15,519
obstacles for the main character well

455
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:17,279
that becomes a vignette that's not an

456
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:18,880
interesting story or maybe like if

457
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:21,199
indiana jones just got the map at the

458
00:16:24,790 --> 00:16:22,800
beginning and said okay here's the ark

459
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,800
of the covenant here's the x go get it

460
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:26,399
that's not quite as interesting as

461
00:16:30,629 --> 00:16:28,160
having to follow a clue

462
00:16:32,710 --> 00:16:30,639
and to to overcome that challenge and go

463
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,720
to the next one and so if we view the

464
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:35,040
the obstacles in our lives as challenges

465
00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:36,560
that perhaps we have signed up for

466
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:37,680
whether we

467
00:16:42,310 --> 00:16:40,000
remember it or not it can change our

468
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:42,320
perspective on things you know

469
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:43,680
hey that's

470
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:45,120
that's super interesting and that's

471
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:47,600
going to get super spiritual in just a

472
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:50,560
minute um but i am going to try to kind

473
00:16:53,990 --> 00:16:52,480
of step back a little bit for the

474
00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:54,000
multiple timeline thing because i think

475
00:16:57,829 --> 00:16:55,839
it's super interesting and i think it's

476
00:16:59,030 --> 00:16:57,839
super interesting to connect that to

477
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:59,040
science

478
00:17:01,829 --> 00:17:00,320
and

479
00:17:03,829 --> 00:17:01,839
we're going to get to this awesome quote

480
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,839
from you computer science is eating all

481
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,679
the other sciences which i really want

482
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,360
to get to but

483
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:09,679
when i think of this multiple timeline

484
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:12,319
thing and i think how uncomfortable it

485
00:17:15,429 --> 00:17:13,760
is for

486
00:17:17,429 --> 00:17:15,439
all of us i was going to say folks you

487
00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:17,439
have like somebody else but no for all

488
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:20,720
of us the idea of multiple simultaneous

489
00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:23,120
timelines is is kind of uncomfortable

490
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:25,120
but i always think back to

491
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:27,439
the dean raiden pre-sentiment experiment

492
00:17:30,870 --> 00:17:29,280
are you familiar with that

493
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,880
i don't remember that one specifically i

494
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:32,480
mean i've met dean and i know him oh

495
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:35,120
okay well then you probably know maybe

496
00:17:38,950 --> 00:17:37,600
so the most one of the most famous

497
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,960
experiments that

498
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,720
dean rayden did and it was brilliant the

499
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,000
way that he set it up because he just

500
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:44,240
took a standard kind of freshman

501
00:17:47,990 --> 00:17:46,480
psychology experiments where you sit in

502
00:17:49,350 --> 00:17:48,000
front of the computer and the computer

503
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:49,360
flashes you an image and then we're

504
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:52,480
going to measure how you react to it

505
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:53,840
and what he did was really quite

506
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,840
brilliant he said why are we assuming

507
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,000
this timeline why why are we assuming

508
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,480
your reaction comes after the computer

509
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:02,720
selects and displays the image

510
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,720
and lo and behold that was the

511
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:06,080
pre-sentiment

512
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:07,840
we can't really call it precognition

513
00:18:11,270 --> 00:18:09,760
because it wasn't at a cognitive level

514
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:11,280
it was just

515
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:13,120
the sensations in your body dilation

516
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:15,200
your pupils can change all that kind of

517
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:16,160
stuff

518
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,840
i mean this is a six sigma replicated

519
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:21,360
throughout the world multiple labs

520
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:24,160
replicated by him timing this this would

521
00:18:28,390 --> 00:18:26,160
if you really were objective you'd say

522
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,400
this is one of the most reliably

523
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:30,080
statistically one of the most reliable

524
00:18:35,270 --> 00:18:32,320
experiments we have all in science and

525
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:35,280
it completely blows away our idea of the

526
00:18:40,630 --> 00:18:37,919
timeline it fits in perfectly

527
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:40,640
with at least the beginnings of what

528
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,200
you're talking about that we so here

529
00:18:48,310 --> 00:18:46,080
science is telling us

530
00:18:49,270 --> 00:18:48,320
forget it it's it's the timeline thing

531
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:49,280
it's just

532
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,880
i mean we probably knew this since

533
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:53,360
einstein but we could never really get

534
00:18:57,990 --> 00:18:55,679
wrap our arms around it now it's kind of

535
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,000
right there in that experiment what do

536
00:19:01,909 --> 00:19:00,480
you think about that

537
00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:01,919
yeah well i think there's you know

538
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:04,400
something to that uh that if

539
00:19:10,070 --> 00:19:07,360
we are not only in a single timeline you

540
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:10,080
know we are able to know at a certain

541
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,120
level

542
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:13,440
how things might evolve

543
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,240
uh

544
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,240
you know based upon how they've gone in

545
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,679
the past but we may or may not

546
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:19,200
consciously remember like you said it

547
00:19:24,710 --> 00:19:22,799
may not be at the level of cognition and

548
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:24,720
you know i like to use science fiction

549
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,559
as a good way of for people to kind of

550
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,640
understand it and you know there's this

551
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,720
element of uh

552
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,559
the movie groundhog day right which i

553
00:19:36,789 --> 00:19:34,320
guess is sort of science fiction sort of

554
00:19:39,430 --> 00:19:36,799
not right but you know bill murray has

555
00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:39,440
to relive the same day again and again

556
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,520
and as he goes through again and again

557
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:43,840
he learns more and more about what's

558
00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:46,000
happening and he's able to react

559
00:19:49,750 --> 00:19:48,080
differently and to kind of master the

560
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:49,760
events of the day well if you think

561
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:52,880
about a.i and how it works today

562
00:19:57,669 --> 00:19:55,679
like when we're training ai we train it

563
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:57,679
by running the same events again and

564
00:20:01,750 --> 00:19:59,039
again

565
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:01,760
and then we use that to for it to become

566
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:03,760
better knowledgeable because it knows

567
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:05,679
what might happen in this situation or

568
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:08,480
that situation and so for example you

569
00:20:12,710 --> 00:20:10,640
know uh the

570
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,720
the ai you know beat chet the first

571
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:14,320
chess player the grand master a long

572
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,280
time ago

573
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:17,600
ibm's uh uh

574
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:18,799
you know a chess playing computer but

575
00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:21,600
then more recently google's alphago was

576
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,440
able to beat you know some of the best

577
00:20:27,110 --> 00:20:25,120
players that go in the world and the way

578
00:20:30,310 --> 00:20:27,120
they train that is through a process

579
00:20:31,510 --> 00:20:30,320
called self play it will play out each

580
00:20:33,590 --> 00:20:31,520
of those

581
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:33,600
games millions of times and sometimes it

582
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:36,159
will play with itself right so you have

583
00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:38,080
this kind of self-referential thing

584
00:20:42,870 --> 00:20:40,720
going on where you are doing something

585
00:20:45,909 --> 00:20:42,880
multiple times and then you are learning

586
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:45,919
to pick what is most likely the best

587
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:48,960
outcome of that and so that is a process

588
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:51,679
that i call the core loop and it's a

589
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:53,679
process that happens within computer

590
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:54,720
science

591
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:56,720
uh we try out different possibilities

592
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:58,000
even if you go back to like when i used

593
00:21:02,470 --> 00:21:00,320
to make you know checkers games you know

594
00:21:04,630 --> 00:21:02,480
when i was first learning uh computer

595
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:04,640
science it would go out and it would see

596
00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:06,720
what would happen if i were to do x y

597
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:08,480
and z and then it would come back and

598
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,200
say okay of those paths this is the most

599
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,600
optimal path and so you know my

600
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:15,280
conjecture here is that something like

601
00:21:21,190 --> 00:21:18,000
the core loop is happening

602
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:21,200
within our lives we actually go and we

603
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,919
run these timelines uh to see what would

604
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:24,880
happen

605
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:26,880
and then we come back and then we pick

606
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:29,280
the next one that we want to be on so so

607
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:32,159
that's where we are actually sensing

608
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:33,760
right just like in this pre-sentiment

609
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,360
experiment that you talked about that

610
00:21:39,270 --> 00:21:37,679
dean raiden did but also you know where

611
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:39,280
we have these

612
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:42,240
sort of hunches or feelings of deja vu

613
00:21:47,669 --> 00:21:45,440
or funny feeling clues i call them about

614
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:47,679
what's happening about the future now

615
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:49,360
how can we have clues about the future

616
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:51,600
if the future isn't at least

617
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,240
defined in some way right as a set of

618
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:56,080
probabilities now we'll this gets into

619
00:21:58,390 --> 00:21:57,520
the physics and how things work we can

620
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,400
talk about

621
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:00,400
that in a minute if you like

622
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:03,440
but that to me is a sense that we are

623
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:05,919
outside the timeline but then we bring

624
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:08,880
ourselves in as an avatar and if you run

625
00:22:13,830 --> 00:22:10,960
the game multiple times each time it'll

626
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,840
seem like you're just in that one path

627
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,200
but that doesn't mean that there wasn't

628
00:22:19,190 --> 00:22:17,760
another path that had been run before

629
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:19,200
and so that's kind of what i came to

630
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,799
believe and i defined this thing called

631
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:22,720
a multiverse graph

632
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:24,559
and the core loop in my new book and

633
00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:26,720
those you know those are the underlying

634
00:22:30,549 --> 00:22:28,960
processes of how i think this whole

635
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:30,559
thing works

636
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:32,880
let's talk about this computer science

637
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:34,960
is eating the other sciences and i want

638
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:36,000
to kind of talk about it from two

639
00:22:40,149 --> 00:22:38,159
perspectives one is

640
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:40,159
the stuff you're laying out you're

641
00:22:43,669 --> 00:22:42,480
making it sound like

642
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:43,679
science

643
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:46,480
in general is right there with you and

644
00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:48,480
is supportive of this kind of

645
00:22:53,110 --> 00:22:50,559
speculation that you're doing but it's

646
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,120
it's really not in so many ways and then

647
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:55,360
the flip side of that is as you point

648
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:57,200
out if you look at it from a

649
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,280
different perspective particularly as a

650
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:01,200
computer scientist and i would say

651
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,480
particularly as

652
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:04,080
a computer

653
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:07,600
science game designer and developer it's

654
00:23:11,430 --> 00:23:10,000
like i know how this game is playing out

655
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:11,440
we don't know what the motive is

656
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:14,640
completely for the resistance but

657
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:17,039
i i don't know why

658
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:19,520
so first point is

659
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:22,000
do you think there's general acceptance

660
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:22,880
of

661
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:24,480
at least the framework that you're

662
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:28,000
laying out within science as a whole

663
00:23:31,830 --> 00:23:29,919
number two is why are they so resistant

664
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:31,840
because i think they are and three

665
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:33,679
doesn't that all just crumble as

666
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:37,360
computer science eats the other sciences

667
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:39,840
well you know those good good questions

668
00:23:44,230 --> 00:23:42,559
there and on all three fronts but i

669
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,240
would say that you know

670
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:47,039
my books are in fact speculation based

671
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:50,240
upon scientific findings right and so

672
00:23:54,070 --> 00:23:51,840
it's not that science

673
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,080
disagrees but you're right most

674
00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:56,159
scientists don't share

675
00:24:03,190 --> 00:23:59,360
uh my end perspective but we're relying

676
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:03,200
on the same findings or set of data

677
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:05,360
within science that's showing us that

678
00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:07,279
there's something strange

679
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:09,919
about the world that we live in right

680
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:13,120
and so you know in in in my last book i

681
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:15,760
laid out the fact that space isn't what

682
00:24:19,029 --> 00:24:17,919
we think it is right

683
00:24:21,990 --> 00:24:19,039
and

684
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,000
that it's really more about information

685
00:24:26,549 --> 00:24:24,400
and less about physical objects in fact

686
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:26,559
in science you know the more they try to

687
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:28,960
find this thing called matter

688
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:31,279
the more elusive it becomes they can't

689
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:33,279
really find it it's like opening up

690
00:24:37,590 --> 00:24:35,600
those russian nested dolls i like to say

691
00:24:38,870 --> 00:24:37,600
and at the bottom you open it up and at

692
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:38,880
the bottom there's really nothing there

693
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:41,520
but information and so there was a quote

694
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:43,360
from john wheeler who was you know one

695
00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:45,760
of the the giants of 20th century

696
00:24:49,269 --> 00:24:47,520
physics and he worked with einstein and

697
00:24:51,110 --> 00:24:49,279
boer and many others and he came up with

698
00:24:53,190 --> 00:24:51,120
this phrase it from bit

699
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:53,200
and he said at its core

700
00:24:57,029 --> 00:24:54,720
he couldn't find

701
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:57,039
matter as particles but he could find it

702
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,559
as information

703
00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:00,480
right and and he felt that if you had a

704
00:25:05,269 --> 00:25:02,720
series of yes no questions

705
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:05,279
those are the properties of what defines

706
00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:07,600
this thing that we call matter now the

707
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:09,520
other big confounding thing that science

708
00:25:13,510 --> 00:25:11,520
has found is that time isn't what we

709
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:13,520
think it is right we're used to thinking

710
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,400
of time as going from the past

711
00:25:19,430 --> 00:25:18,080
you know slowly towards the future in

712
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:19,440
one direction

713
00:25:21,590 --> 00:25:20,559
uh but

714
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,600
there's something called the delayed

715
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:23,600
choice experiment which was proposed

716
00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:26,000
also by wheeler

717
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:29,520
which was this idea of uh you know are

718
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:32,159
there multiple futures and when as a

719
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:34,000
choice get made and the best way to

720
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:36,000
understand it is from the cosmic delay

721
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:37,840
choice experiment suppose there's light

722
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,520
from a quasar that's like a billion

723
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,360
light years away coming to us and

724
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:43,520
there's a black hole or a galaxy in the

725
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:45,679
middle say a million light years away

726
00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:47,200
and the light has to go to the left or

727
00:25:51,669 --> 00:25:49,760
to the right of that black hole

728
00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:51,679
it can't go both it has to go one way or

729
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:53,679
the other now we would think that that

730
00:25:58,630 --> 00:25:57,039
choice would have had to have been made

731
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,640
a million years ago because the black

732
00:26:03,269 --> 00:26:00,240
hole is a million light years away and

733
00:26:05,430 --> 00:26:03,279
so it takes light a million years

734
00:26:07,510 --> 00:26:05,440
but what the delayed choice experiment

735
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:07,520
has found is that it's not until you

736
00:26:10,549 --> 00:26:08,480
measure

737
00:26:12,789 --> 00:26:10,559
the light when it reaches us which is a

738
00:26:15,830 --> 00:26:12,799
million years after it reaches a black

739
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:15,840
hole and maybe a billion years later

740
00:26:21,029 --> 00:26:18,240
from when it left the the very distant

741
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,039
quasar for example that that choice

742
00:26:25,909 --> 00:26:23,440
doesn't happen until the measurement and

743
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:25,919
so what this is telling us is that the

744
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,320
past isn't what we think it is and the

745
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:30,080
future isn't what we think it is that

746
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:32,400
they're related in strange ways and so

747
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,600
science doesn't have a great

748
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:35,440
interpretation for that and the best

749
00:26:39,990 --> 00:26:37,520
interpretation that they've come up with

750
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:40,000
uh within physics is the multiverse idea

751
00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:41,760
right so there's like two major

752
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:44,480
interpretations of uh quantum physics

753
00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:46,880
that are kind of considered you know

754
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:49,760
accepted interpretations one is the

755
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:52,480
collapse of the probability wave based

756
00:26:57,029 --> 00:26:54,799
upon observation and then the other is

757
00:26:59,510 --> 00:26:57,039
the multiverse idea and the multiverse

758
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:59,520
idea has more and more adherence over

759
00:27:01,590 --> 00:27:00,559
time

760
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:01,600
now there's some problems with the

761
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:03,200
multiverse idea it basically says that

762
00:27:07,110 --> 00:27:05,200
every time there's a decision to be made

763
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:07,120
the universe splits off

764
00:27:11,669 --> 00:27:09,039
into multiple branches so think of it

765
00:27:13,669 --> 00:27:11,679
like a tree a very large tree that just

766
00:27:14,710 --> 00:27:13,679
keeps spreading you know it's its

767
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,720
branches

768
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,480
outward forever

769
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:18,000
and so you know this is a matter of

770
00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:19,840
debate within science

771
00:27:23,990 --> 00:27:22,080
and the question and my question is well

772
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:24,000
if you're going to clone something

773
00:27:27,430 --> 00:27:25,919
you know what is it that you clone

774
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,440
there's nothing in nature where you can

775
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:29,760
clone like a giant object

776
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:32,240
in an instant it takes time even in

777
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,679
biology right you can you can clone

778
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,080
a specific plant or

779
00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:40,240
if you're cloning a sheep

780
00:27:43,269 --> 00:27:41,919
you know it takes time you have to grow

781
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:43,279
that clone

782
00:27:48,950 --> 00:27:45,679
but the one thing you can clone almost

783
00:27:50,630 --> 00:27:48,960
instantly is information right and so

784
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:50,640
you know i believe that this model of a

785
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:52,640
simulated multiverse actually bridges

786
00:27:57,029 --> 00:27:54,000
the gap between these different

787
00:27:59,190 --> 00:27:57,039
interpretations of quantum physics

788
00:28:01,510 --> 00:27:59,200
now the the big debate though i think

789
00:28:02,789 --> 00:28:01,520
that you're hinting at is this issue of

790
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:02,799
consciousness

791
00:28:07,269 --> 00:28:05,440
existing or not existing and that to me

792
00:28:09,350 --> 00:28:07,279
the video game

793
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:09,360
kind of point of view that i have i like

794
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:11,440
to define as the npc

795
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:13,600
versus the rpg

796
00:28:17,909 --> 00:28:15,600
debate or versions of the simulation

797
00:28:21,110 --> 00:28:17,919
hypothesis npcs being non-player

798
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:21,120
characters rpg being role-playing games

799
00:28:25,909 --> 00:28:22,960
and so like whereas if you and i are in

800
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:25,919
a game we have our avatars each of us is

801
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:27,840
playing that avatar but then there are

802
00:28:32,070 --> 00:28:30,080
other characters that aren't necessarily

803
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:32,080
conscious entities outside the game and

804
00:28:36,070 --> 00:28:34,159
so most scientists tend to go towards

805
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:36,080
that interpretation which is a

806
00:28:39,430 --> 00:28:37,679
materialistic point of view that we're

807
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:39,440
all npcs

808
00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:41,200
but there's this other interpretation of

809
00:28:46,230 --> 00:28:43,840
the rpg that we exist outside and we

810
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:46,240
inhabit that that character

811
00:28:51,430 --> 00:28:47,919
that's where it seems to me that kind of

812
00:28:54,149 --> 00:28:51,440
a literal interpretation of the

813
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:54,159
multiverse multiverse theory is kind of

814
00:28:58,870 --> 00:28:56,799
silly i mean no one really thinks that

815
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:58,880
because it implies that the whole

816
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,039
consciousness is an illusion and it's

817
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:03,440
this kind of weird interpretation i

818
00:29:08,230 --> 00:29:05,600
think of ultimately the double slit

819
00:29:10,870 --> 00:29:08,240
experiment which no it's just we're

820
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:10,880
uncomfortable with the idea that

821
00:29:13,990 --> 00:29:12,480
we really are the observer that

822
00:29:15,909 --> 00:29:14,000
consciousness really is making a

823
00:29:18,070 --> 00:29:15,919
difference but again i point dean rayden

824
00:29:19,909 --> 00:29:18,080
you know no nobody he needs to stack up

825
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:19,919
some nobel prizes on his bookshelf or

826
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:21,279
something because the other experiment

827
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:22,559
that he did that i thought was

828
00:29:26,710 --> 00:29:24,399
incredibly

829
00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:26,720
you know poignant and relevant to right

830
00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,279
now is he said okay i'll settle any of

831
00:29:33,269 --> 00:29:31,440
this kind of debate

832
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:33,279
it's not even very hard anymore i can

833
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,760
set up a photon bean generator in my lab

834
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,919
and i can bring in a meditator and i'll

835
00:29:41,029 --> 00:29:38,880
have him

836
00:29:42,870 --> 00:29:41,039
you know look the other way and then say

837
00:29:45,269 --> 00:29:42,880
okay focus your attention on the photon

838
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:45,279
beam and boom you know we can control

839
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:47,440
that really well and he does and another

840
00:29:52,310 --> 00:29:50,080
six sigma result yeah if i tell this guy

841
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,320
who's this zen buddhist

842
00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:54,559
twenty thousand hour meditator to focus

843
00:29:57,909 --> 00:29:57,200
on the photon beam he can show an effect

844
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:57,919
so

845
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,559
to me it's it's kind of a

846
00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,480
i just don't even wanna go there in

847
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,799
terms of materialist materialistic uh

848
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:06,799
science consciousness is an illusion

849
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:09,520
kind of crap it just seems to be a huge

850
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:12,000
anchor holding us down so

851
00:30:15,350 --> 00:30:14,320
where i see you really going i mean i

852
00:30:18,070 --> 00:30:15,360
know you have to fit it in the

853
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:18,080
multiverse thing but i almost see you

854
00:30:22,789 --> 00:30:19,760
doing some kind of

855
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:22,799
hybrid but i i'm my

856
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:25,840
my wonder my concern my thought is

857
00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:28,799
are you being too materialistic

858
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:31,520
in that interpretation of it i mean one

859
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:32,799
of the things we talked about before and

860
00:30:37,669 --> 00:30:35,279
i think it's still at play is the kind

861
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:37,679
kind of infinite regress you know who's

862
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:39,679
who's simulating the simulation of the

863
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:42,480
simulation kind of thing so i bundled a

864
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:44,880
bunch of stuff there doesn't materialist

865
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:46,880
science consciousness is an illusion

866
00:30:50,789 --> 00:30:48,159
isn't that kind of

867
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,799
out the window in terms of really moving

868
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:52,480
us forward

869
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:54,799
well you know i i tend to

870
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:56,559
be very sympathetic with that that point

871
00:30:59,430 --> 00:30:58,480
of view and uh also you know you

872
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,440
mentioned

873
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:01,919
dean's experiments but also uh you know

874
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:04,559
the the the pair the princeton uh

875
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:06,480
engineering advanced research

876
00:31:10,870 --> 00:31:09,360
uh experiments around uh quantum random

877
00:31:14,230 --> 00:31:10,880
number generators and you didn't even

878
00:31:16,470 --> 00:31:14,240
need a zen monk who's a meditator with

879
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:16,480
20 000 you just got random people to

880
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:20,080
come in right that you sat down and and

881
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:22,240
so the way that works is you know the

882
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,080
the only thing we know truly random are

883
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:26,480
these quantum processes and so you know

884
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:28,320
theoretically over time if you do 10 000

885
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:29,760
of these it should get closer and closer

886
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:32,799
to 50 50 but by thinking about it or not

887
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:34,080
thinking about it they were able to

888
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:36,320
verify they were able to make the

889
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:38,720
variations in those numbers and show

890
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:41,840
that consciousness was somehow affecting

891
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:44,159
what was going on there but you know

892
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:47,039
getting back to the multiverse theory

893
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:48,720
and and consciousness i feel like this

894
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:51,039
is a way to bridge the gap and you know

895
00:31:54,710 --> 00:31:52,960
there was a there's a well-known

896
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,720
physicist from university of oregon

897
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,399
named ahmed koswami and you know he

898
00:32:00,149 --> 00:31:58,399
wrote a few books like the self-aware

899
00:32:01,509 --> 00:32:00,159
universe and i remember

900
00:32:04,230 --> 00:32:01,519
meeting him once when he was in mountain

901
00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:04,240
view and somebody was asking him about

902
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:05,840
these different interpretations and what

903
00:32:10,470 --> 00:32:08,159
what are the probabilities mean

904
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,480
that we get into when we talk about the

905
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:12,000
collapse of the probability with and

906
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:13,279
what does it mean

907
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:17,200
multiverse and he said well all these

908
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:18,159
things that we're calling the

909
00:32:22,789 --> 00:32:20,320
probabilities are what would happen if

910
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,799
you ran the same process again and again

911
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,640
and again and that's why you get the

912
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:26,720
probability wave and that's what you

913
00:32:30,470 --> 00:32:28,399
know for me was an interesting insight

914
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:30,480
because it ties to this idea of the

915
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:32,880
simulated multiverse that

916
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,600
the multiverse is what would happen if

917
00:32:39,830 --> 00:32:38,080
you ran the same process again and again

918
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,840
so it doesn't necessarily mean that

919
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:41,679
we're always running an infinite number

920
00:32:46,870 --> 00:32:44,240
of processes it means we run in in

921
00:32:49,430 --> 00:32:46,880
computer programming the the way that we

922
00:32:51,990 --> 00:32:49,440
do it with quantum computers so

923
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:52,000
uh quantum computing is a whole new area

924
00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:53,519
that's quite interesting and i think it

925
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:56,240
reveals a lot about both computation and

926
00:33:00,310 --> 00:32:57,919
the physical universe because it tries

927
00:33:02,549 --> 00:33:00,320
to to combine the two now quantum

928
00:33:05,269 --> 00:33:02,559
computers theoretically are able to find

929
00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:05,279
an answer to a problem like breaking

930
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:07,840
cryptography for example that might take

931
00:33:11,669 --> 00:33:08,799
you know

932
00:33:12,470 --> 00:33:11,679
uh two to the 256

933
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:12,480
you know

934
00:33:16,389 --> 00:33:14,960
values and and and there's so many

935
00:33:18,230 --> 00:33:16,399
values there that it would literally

936
00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:18,240
take a classical computer

937
00:33:22,870 --> 00:33:20,320
thousands of years to run through all of

938
00:33:25,350 --> 00:33:22,880
those possibilities right but a quantum

939
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:25,360
computer is able to find the answer

940
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:27,679
theoretically by doing this computation

941
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,159
in multiple universes see theoretically

942
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:32,159
because that's still a controversial

943
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:33,760
explanation but nobody's come up with a

944
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,840
better one yet for exactly how that

945
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:37,200
works and so

946
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:38,559
i like to think of the world as a

947
00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:40,720
quantum computation which says it's not

948
00:33:44,870 --> 00:33:42,720
that we're necessarily spinning off all

949
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:44,880
these realities and they always exist

950
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:48,960
for all time it's that we as individuals

951
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:50,840
are tapping into this

952
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:53,679
multiplayer quantum computing reality

953
00:33:58,950 --> 00:33:56,480
and we are each able to run as many

954
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,960
scenarios as we need to to solve the

955
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,480
quantum computing problem that we're

956
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:02,559
trying to solve which for us may be to

957
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,399
have an experience

958
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:06,480
as a player of a video game so now we're

959
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:08,000
tying the quantum computing back to

960
00:34:11,349 --> 00:34:09,919
video games and so that's a way that i

961
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:11,359
kind of like to think about it and it

962
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:13,280
does i believe tie together all of this

963
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:16,159
stuff in kind of a a unique way you know

964
00:34:19,430 --> 00:34:17,599
yeah you're gonna have to break that

965
00:34:21,909 --> 00:34:19,440
down i always say michael scott you know

966
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:21,919
like i tell it to me like i'm in first

967
00:34:25,430 --> 00:34:23,520
grade kind of thing but

968
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,440
no there's an important

969
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:27,440
gap to bridge there that i think people

970
00:34:30,790 --> 00:34:29,839
can understand because enough people

971
00:34:32,790 --> 00:34:30,800
have

972
00:34:34,629 --> 00:34:32,800
kind of at least done the intro to

973
00:34:37,270 --> 00:34:34,639
quantum computing

974
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:37,280
and understand that it's kind of set up

975
00:34:40,230 --> 00:34:38,639
at least the way we were able to

976
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:40,240
engineer it now and we should add you

977
00:34:44,149 --> 00:34:41,760
know it's not like

978
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:44,159
theoretical at this point there's how

979
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,000
many qubits are we up to

980
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:48,560
with the most advanced

981
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:49,599
you know i don't know the number because

982
00:34:54,069 --> 00:34:52,000
it keeps changing every month or two but

983
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:54,079
uh you know a couple like a year or two

984
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:55,919
ago i was only like four cube bits and

985
00:34:59,990 --> 00:34:57,839
then it was eight and i believe there's

986
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,000
a 50 cubit machine i'm not sure if it's

987
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,160
been rolled out but it's getting there

988
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:04,400
and so cubits for most people

989
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:05,839
i just want you to explain before we

990
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:07,839
even get into that because the numbers

991
00:35:12,390 --> 00:35:10,079
will throw people it's like the way we

992
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:12,400
think about it the way i i think about

993
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,520
it is for certain kinds of problems i

994
00:35:20,069 --> 00:35:17,760
can set up this huge

995
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:20,079
matrix like mathematical matrix and i

996
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:22,079
can go down all the paths

997
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:24,240
at the same time

998
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:26,720
and for certain problems

999
00:35:31,109 --> 00:35:28,640
if we try to do it linearly like you're

1000
00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:31,119
saying or i guess whatever you know we

1001
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:32,640
just couldn't do it and this way we can

1002
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:34,720
do it but the the leap that you're

1003
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,200
making that i want you to kind of

1004
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:39,119
support a little bit more is you're

1005
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:42,320
drawing are you saying it's analogous to

1006
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:45,359
a multiverse or are you saying at some

1007
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:48,880
deep quantum physics level it is

1008
00:35:54,150 --> 00:35:50,880
a a truly

1009
00:35:57,190 --> 00:35:54,160
a quantum event to have that uh

1010
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:57,200
massively parallel processing

1011
00:36:01,510 --> 00:35:59,280
which is it

1012
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:01,520
well you know so just for people who

1013
00:36:09,030 --> 00:36:04,960
don't know so a qubit is a bit that can

1014
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:09,040
have a value of both 0 and 1. so uh

1015
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,839
qubit is a bit which normally has a

1016
00:36:14,870 --> 00:36:14,000
value of just zero or one one or the

1017
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:14,880
other

1018
00:36:19,190 --> 00:36:16,480
it's in superposition i like to say that

1019
00:36:21,190 --> 00:36:19,200
it's kind of drunk right it doesn't know

1020
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,200
which value it has in fact it has both

1021
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:23,520
values so if you were to have like eight

1022
00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:25,680
bits most people have heard of 8-bit

1023
00:36:29,829 --> 00:36:27,520
16-bit what it means is you have a

1024
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:29,839
series of zeros and ones you have eight

1025
00:36:36,069 --> 00:36:32,640
of them and so you can have two to the

1026
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,079
eight or 256 possible values if you were

1027
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:38,000
to make every single bit have a value of

1028
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:40,240
zero and one and so by by its name what

1029
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:41,520
i'm saying is that

1030
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:43,680
any process that can be represented as

1031
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:44,880
information

1032
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,520
has this multiverse graph

1033
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:50,000
right it's there whether whether we

1034
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:52,400
think of it as real or not because those

1035
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:55,040
are the possible values now

1036
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:57,440
in computation we try to figure out

1037
00:37:02,069 --> 00:36:59,359
which of those

1038
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:02,079
values of this graph are worth

1039
00:37:07,190 --> 00:37:03,520
traversing

1040
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:07,200
searching for it right so if you want to

1041
00:37:12,390 --> 00:37:10,079
search if you you can take two roads

1042
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:12,400
from here to you know philadelphia to

1043
00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:14,079
new york and you want to figure out

1044
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:15,760
which is the best road well you have to

1045
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:17,359
go down each one

1046
00:37:22,069 --> 00:37:19,520
but if those two roads have two more

1047
00:37:23,430 --> 00:37:22,079
roads you know it's a new work or some

1048
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:23,440
place right you have to keep making

1049
00:37:28,150 --> 00:37:26,560
these decisions along the way and so you

1050
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:28,160
can think of any

1051
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:30,800
process which is a series of choices

1052
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:32,800
as a multiverse and that's kind of the

1053
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:34,640
the idea that i'm putting forward

1054
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:36,720
whether they are physical or not becomes

1055
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:39,839
irrelevant because they become physical

1056
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:42,079
only when we render them

1057
00:37:46,470 --> 00:37:44,880
meaning when we choose to explore that

1058
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,480
path and so what i'm saying is that

1059
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:48,480
quantum computing shows us

1060
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:49,440
that

1061
00:37:54,630 --> 00:37:52,079
there is something inherent in physical

1062
00:37:57,109 --> 00:37:54,640
matter that allows us to explore

1063
00:37:59,670 --> 00:37:57,119
multiple paths simultaneously and to

1064
00:38:01,589 --> 00:37:59,680
discard those paths that we don't need

1065
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:01,599
it it's kind of a what we call garbage

1066
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:04,079
collection in the computer science world

1067
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:06,240
where you've got all this extra data

1068
00:38:10,870 --> 00:38:07,760
that might have been needed at some

1069
00:38:13,030 --> 00:38:10,880
point but it's not needed anymore and so

1070
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:13,040
uh i guess what i'm saying is i think

1071
00:38:15,910 --> 00:38:13,839
that

1072
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:15,920
the multiverse idea

1073
00:38:18,630 --> 00:38:17,680
doesn't have to be physical it ties back

1074
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:18,640
to

1075
00:38:23,190 --> 00:38:20,400
my statement earlier that computer

1076
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:23,200
science is eating all the other sciences

1077
00:38:26,390 --> 00:38:25,119
that everything can be represented as

1078
00:38:29,109 --> 00:38:26,400
information

1079
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:29,119
and this is true with biology this is

1080
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:30,640
true with physical objects if you think

1081
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,119
of like genetics well genetics is kind

1082
00:38:37,109 --> 00:38:35,440
of an information science right if you

1083
00:38:39,910 --> 00:38:37,119
look at they theorized the idea of the

1084
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:39,920
gene before they actually discovered dna

1085
00:38:44,550 --> 00:38:42,560
but it's just defined as a series of

1086
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:44,560
bits of information

1087
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,640
and so more and more you're seeing

1088
00:38:50,310 --> 00:38:48,400
within university settings you have

1089
00:38:52,630 --> 00:38:50,320
bioinformatics you have kind of these

1090
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,640
departments that are like a blend of the

1091
00:38:56,630 --> 00:38:54,560
traditional department you have physics

1092
00:38:58,870 --> 00:38:56,640
but then you have digital physics well

1093
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:58,880
what's digital physics digital physics

1094
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:00,800
is about the information in the universe

1095
00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:02,320
right i mean we used to talk about the

1096
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:03,920
conservation of

1097
00:39:07,030 --> 00:39:05,040
energy

1098
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:07,040
conservation of matter all of these

1099
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:08,640
types of things

1100
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:10,640
and now we talk about the conservation

1101
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:13,599
of information that isn't lost and so

1102
00:39:18,069 --> 00:39:16,000
there's this i think greater

1103
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:18,079
understanding that's developing across

1104
00:39:20,550 --> 00:39:19,680
all of the sciences

1105
00:39:23,349 --> 00:39:20,560
that

1106
00:39:25,829 --> 00:39:23,359
the world is comprised of information

1107
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:25,839
and and i don't think you know science

1108
00:39:29,910 --> 00:39:27,920
has quite figured out how does it go

1109
00:39:31,430 --> 00:39:29,920
from information to what we think of as

1110
00:39:33,589 --> 00:39:31,440
physical right and that's where the

1111
00:39:36,150 --> 00:39:33,599
video game analogy comes into play

1112
00:39:37,990 --> 00:39:36,160
because at the moment you are rendering

1113
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:38,000
one of those possibilities and that to

1114
00:39:43,030 --> 00:39:41,200
you seems like the real physical world

1115
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:43,040
but that just happens to be physical

1116
00:39:47,829 --> 00:39:44,960
while it's being rendered out of the

1117
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:47,839
information that comprises all of that

1118
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:50,079
behind the scenes so i guess that's kind

1119
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,839
of an overview of the way that i'm

1120
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:53,359
thinking

1121
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:56,960
yeah that's it's amazing um let me again

1122
00:40:00,550 --> 00:39:58,079
try and break it down because i think

1123
00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:00,560
there's layers i think the the computer

1124
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:02,560
science is eating all the other science

1125
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,880
is kind of a really interesting thing

1126
00:40:08,230 --> 00:40:06,880
and and especially for me the more i

1127
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:08,240
thought about it is

1128
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:11,200
you kind of step it down you know like

1129
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:12,400
first

1130
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:14,640
on a very concrete level

1131
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:15,760
like what you're talking about with

1132
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:18,319
biology they get it from the fact that

1133
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:20,800
like the old school guy you know who's

1134
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:22,640
the head of the department he's like has

1135
00:40:26,710 --> 00:40:24,800
to call everybody in how do you run this

1136
00:40:28,230 --> 00:40:26,720
program that does this thing again you

1137
00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:28,240
know it got me there

1138
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:32,000
so in that way it's kind of eating away

1139
00:40:36,630 --> 00:40:34,560
at it and then what you're talking about

1140
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:36,640
though is kind of this next level if

1141
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,240
somebody really thinks about it and kind

1142
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:40,240
of goes into the future and says okay

1143
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:41,839
what are the problems we're really

1144
00:40:46,710 --> 00:40:44,480
facing you know from a biologic biology

1145
00:40:49,030 --> 00:40:46,720
standpoint or genetic standpoint just in

1146
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:49,040
terms of academic curiosity you know

1147
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:50,400
what would we how would we solve that

1148
00:40:53,990 --> 00:40:52,240
what are the really difficult problems

1149
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:54,000
boom they're coming right back to you

1150
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:56,480
and they're going res how would we solve

1151
00:41:00,150 --> 00:40:58,079
this and you're going well you know

1152
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:00,160
there's some kind of ai modelings

1153
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:01,760
learning that could we could apply there

1154
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:03,440
or hey that's a problem that seems to

1155
00:41:08,069 --> 00:41:05,599
fit with what's going on in quantum

1156
00:41:10,069 --> 00:41:08,079
computing and suddenly

1157
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:10,079
they've kind of lost

1158
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,640
lost control to a certain extent so in

1159
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:14,400
that way it's kind of

1160
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:16,960
eating all the other sciences but then

1161
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:19,040
what you're kind of even alluding to is

1162
00:41:25,829 --> 00:41:22,319
kind of a whole other level of that that

1163
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:25,839
is implied by the multiverse kind of

1164
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:27,680
thing so

1165
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:30,160
walk us walk us through that and is

1166
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:31,119
there

1167
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:32,480
yeah just walk us through that any

1168
00:41:36,069 --> 00:41:34,560
thoughts on that

1169
00:41:38,470 --> 00:41:36,079
yeah well it's a good point that you

1170
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,480
know obviously there's the practical

1171
00:41:41,670 --> 00:41:40,000
if you're doing any science today you

1172
00:41:44,150 --> 00:41:41,680
have to like run programs and do

1173
00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:44,160
simulations right uh and so there's the

1174
00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:45,920
practical side of hey let me bring in

1175
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:48,560
the computer guy who can knows how to

1176
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:51,599
run these programs right uh but

1177
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:53,440
i'm trying to get beyond that to say

1178
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:56,319
that the fundamental entities

1179
00:42:02,470 --> 00:41:59,440
that we have been describing

1180
00:42:05,270 --> 00:42:02,480
as nature and physical

1181
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:05,280
are not nature and physical and so

1182
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,640
perhaps you know when i say computer

1183
00:42:10,950 --> 00:42:08,480
science i'm using it as a catch-all term

1184
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:10,960
for several things computer programming

1185
00:42:16,870 --> 00:42:14,319
ai but also information science i get

1186
00:42:18,630 --> 00:42:16,880
that i wonder and and you maybe you just

1187
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:18,640
totally don't agree with this

1188
00:42:23,430 --> 00:42:21,119
but i wonder if we're not

1189
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:23,440
kind of converging to the same point to

1190
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:26,560
a certain extent in that when that guy

1191
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:28,400
at the biology department who's been

1192
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:31,040
there forever or when his sharpest

1193
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:32,640
brightest

1194
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:33,680
you know

1195
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:36,400
post-grad assistant kind of sees the

1196
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:38,079
future and

1197
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:40,560
goes and starts diving into

1198
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:43,040
ai and starts diving into

1199
00:42:46,309 --> 00:42:44,880
uh

1200
00:42:47,589 --> 00:42:46,319
quantum computing and all the rest of

1201
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:47,599
that and says i gotta go back and get a

1202
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:49,520
phd in quantum computing as well because

1203
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:50,480
that's where everything's heading and

1204
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:51,760
stuff like that

1205
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:54,400
it's almost like for you to even think

1206
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:57,760
along these lines you had to have

1207
00:43:01,990 --> 00:43:00,640
everything that you have in your head

1208
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:02,000
aren't a lot of people in the other

1209
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:04,480
sciences gonna have to go there to where

1210
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:07,760
they can you know even get to truly

1211
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,400
making this leap that you're making

1212
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:13,119
well i think over time paradigms shift

1213
00:43:17,990 --> 00:43:15,839
and and people become more comfortable

1214
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:18,000
with new paradigms and new ways of

1215
00:43:21,030 --> 00:43:19,839
thinking about things like 100 years ago

1216
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:21,040
in the sciences

1217
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:22,720
you know they didn't like the idea of

1218
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,640
quantum mechanics right i mean even

1219
00:43:28,630 --> 00:43:26,640
einstein said you know

1220
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:28,640
god doesn't play dice right so he didn't

1221
00:43:32,950 --> 00:43:32,000
like the idea of probabilities uh and

1222
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,960
you know there were people who didn't

1223
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:35,200
like einstein's ideas of

1224
00:43:40,309 --> 00:43:38,160
of uh relativity and so what happens

1225
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:40,319
over time is that we become more

1226
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:43,520
familiar with concepts and we're able to

1227
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,800
integrate them

1228
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,560
you know into our thinking and this

1229
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:49,200
happens with scientists as well and so

1230
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:52,160
you don't have to know exactly how

1231
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:53,520
you know

1232
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:55,280
a uh

1233
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:57,520
an automobile engine right internal

1234
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:00,240
combustion engine works in order to be

1235
00:44:04,309 --> 00:44:02,800
able to understand the idea

1236
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:04,319
uh behind the car right you don't have

1237
00:44:08,630 --> 00:44:06,880
to know all the details of the equations

1238
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:08,640
of how the gas burns but you know

1239
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:10,240
there's gas you put it in it's

1240
00:44:15,030 --> 00:44:13,359
converting energy so that idea becomes

1241
00:44:17,190 --> 00:44:15,040
uh something we can use as a building

1242
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,200
block and so i think you know within

1243
00:44:20,230 --> 00:44:18,960
this computing world like for example at

1244
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:20,240
mit

1245
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:22,480
they just established a new college of

1246
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,760
computing

1247
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:25,119
which is different from the college of

1248
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:27,280
computer your science or the engineering

1249
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:29,040
college which computer science is a part

1250
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:30,880
of it's it's like a whole separate like

1251
00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:32,960
there's the college of liberal arts you

1252
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:34,319
know the business school there's like a

1253
00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:35,760
whole new college of computing what does

1254
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:38,319
that mean it's about applying computing

1255
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:41,839
ideas with emphasis on quantum computing

1256
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:43,440
but not only coming out of computing

1257
00:44:48,710 --> 00:44:46,560
into all the other areas so i think this

1258
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:48,720
does lead us to that point it may take

1259
00:44:52,470 --> 00:44:50,480
people some time to get there i mean in

1260
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:52,480
my own case i've been thinking about

1261
00:44:56,710 --> 00:44:53,599
these things

1262
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:56,720
uh you know since i was a kid but also

1263
00:45:01,270 --> 00:44:58,640
by spending peop time with people

1264
00:45:04,470 --> 00:45:01,280
outside of the world of science uh and

1265
00:45:06,790 --> 00:45:04,480
so you know that that leap i think come

1266
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:06,800
uh with with more scientists

1267
00:45:09,030 --> 00:45:08,160
acknowledging

1268
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:09,040
that

1269
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,000
to the leap around

1270
00:45:20,230 --> 00:45:18,480
consciousness and viewing in the same

1271
00:45:22,230 --> 00:45:20,240
way that you and i are not really

1272
00:45:24,630 --> 00:45:22,240
talking to each other right now are we

1273
00:45:27,109 --> 00:45:24,640
right we're actually in a virtual world

1274
00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:27,119
if you think about it right i my avatar

1275
00:45:30,470 --> 00:45:29,200
which is just a series of bits that

1276
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:30,480
looks like me

1277
00:45:34,470 --> 00:45:32,400
is talking to your avatar

1278
00:45:36,470 --> 00:45:34,480
right over the internet and so i think

1279
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:36,480
that idea becomes something that people

1280
00:45:40,870 --> 00:45:39,040
can understand now uh whereas you know

1281
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:40,880
30 50 years ago people wouldn't

1282
00:45:44,790 --> 00:45:42,400
understand that idea like that was

1283
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:44,800
strange to think of talking to someone

1284
00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:46,960
over a computer like that just didn't

1285
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:49,920
make any sense right the term avatar was

1286
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:52,480
introduced in the 80s by a couple guys

1287
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:55,680
working at lucas near george lucas's uh

1288
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:57,920
nascent video game company back then and

1289
00:46:01,430 --> 00:45:59,839
so i guess my point is that as new

1290
00:46:03,750 --> 00:46:01,440
generations grow up they're more

1291
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:03,760
comfortable with certain ideas and then

1292
00:46:09,030 --> 00:46:07,280
those ideas become easy enough to extend

1293
00:46:11,589 --> 00:46:09,040
and combine whereas before they were

1294
00:46:12,950 --> 00:46:11,599
thought to be completely separate you

1295
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:12,960
know and so i think that's an ongoing

1296
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:15,920
process that will happen over time

1297
00:46:21,349 --> 00:46:18,800
okay let me go all skeptical on you

1298
00:46:22,470 --> 00:46:21,359
are you stretching the metaphor

1299
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:22,480
too far

1300
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:24,800
if we just start down

1301
00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:27,359
the path of consciousness is fundamental

1302
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,040
take a whole different kind of

1303
00:46:32,390 --> 00:46:31,200
perspective consciousness is fundamental

1304
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:32,400
we start

1305
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:34,240
looking at the data sets that we have

1306
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:35,839
out there we start looking at near-death

1307
00:46:39,589 --> 00:46:37,119
experience

1308
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:39,599
science you know over 200 peer-reviewed

1309
00:46:45,109 --> 00:46:42,160
studies all coming back and saying that

1310
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:45,119
consciousness is now immediately outside

1311
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:48,240
of this time space continuum

1312
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,119
that i think you're kind of depending on

1313
00:46:55,030 --> 00:46:53,280
in a way are you or are you not where

1314
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:55,040
would that put us

1315
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:57,599
relatively if you look at reincarnation

1316
00:47:02,230 --> 00:46:59,920
science we've had jim tucker from the

1317
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:02,240
university of virginia on the show on

1318
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,040
one hand you could say wow it fits in

1319
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:07,440
with what rizz is saying on the other

1320
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:08,960
hand you could say no there's some kind

1321
00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:11,680
of fundamental contradictions in terms

1322
00:47:16,069 --> 00:47:12,560
of

1323
00:47:19,190 --> 00:47:16,079
consciousness because it's definitely

1324
00:47:21,270 --> 00:47:19,200
implying some kind of hierarchy that

1325
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,280
isn't really modeled in what you're

1326
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:23,680
talking about well i think the metaphor

1327
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,319
fits pretty well uh you know i mean i i

1328
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:28,160
spent a lot of time with the

1329
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:31,599
near-death experiencers uh and

1330
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:33,920
you know many of them report

1331
00:47:36,870 --> 00:47:34,960
uh

1332
00:47:38,870 --> 00:47:36,880
that they were able to

1333
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:38,880
look back in what's called a life review

1334
00:47:43,670 --> 00:47:40,880
right and so they were able to

1335
00:47:45,670 --> 00:47:43,680
uh kind of go back and view the events

1336
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:45,680
and many of them describe it

1337
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:48,880
as a room with a big projector right

1338
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,359
and so they're using this metaphor and

1339
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:53,359
it's like replaying

1340
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,680
something that has been recorded right

1341
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:57,520
but what what was interesting to me and

1342
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:59,760
why i wrote the second book and included

1343
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:01,920
a chapter on that you know near the end

1344
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:03,920
is that sometimes they report being able

1345
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,400
to see what would have happened right

1346
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:08,800
had they made different choices as if

1347
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:11,760
that wasn't that different from what

1348
00:48:16,549 --> 00:48:14,160
actually happened and so i think the

1349
00:48:18,309 --> 00:48:16,559
metaphor of the the simulation or video

1350
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,319
game works pretty well because it means

1351
00:48:22,390 --> 00:48:20,400
you can rerun i mean they're talking

1352
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:22,400
about a life review of things that

1353
00:48:26,549 --> 00:48:24,640
hadn't happened right but that might

1354
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:26,559
have happened and they're watching it as

1355
00:48:31,270 --> 00:48:28,720
if they had actually happened and turns

1356
00:48:35,270 --> 00:48:31,280
out you know when when people

1357
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:35,280
talk about the the the life preview

1358
00:48:38,309 --> 00:48:37,119
uh extended in what the buddhist called

1359
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:38,319
a bardot

1360
00:48:42,470 --> 00:48:40,640
which some people remember through

1361
00:48:44,710 --> 00:48:42,480
whether it's through hypnosis etc and

1362
00:48:47,670 --> 00:48:44,720
some people even in jim tucker's case

1363
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:47,680
remember that experience of before they

1364
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,079
were incarnated into this life they talk

1365
00:48:54,549 --> 00:48:52,400
about being able to see paths

1366
00:48:56,230 --> 00:48:54,559
of like these trees

1367
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,240
that move out and that there are these

1368
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,880
major decision points and that they can

1369
00:49:01,510 --> 00:49:00,640
watch what would have happened in new

1370
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:01,520
york

1371
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:03,520
uh and you know a journey of souls from

1372
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:05,520
dr michael newton is a

1373
00:49:09,910 --> 00:49:08,240
good example of a series of case studies

1374
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:09,920
along these lines and they said it was

1375
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:11,839
weird it was as if i was actually

1376
00:49:17,190 --> 00:49:14,480
watching life in new york before i had

1377
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:17,200
been born and so you know what what does

1378
00:49:21,750 --> 00:49:19,359
that mean how do we fit that into a

1379
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:21,760
model that we as human beings

1380
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:23,920
can understand you know with our with

1381
00:49:27,910 --> 00:49:26,240
our minds and i think the the video game

1382
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:27,920
metaphor is a very good one because it

1383
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:30,400
means you just run that part of the game

1384
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:32,400
you watch what would happen

1385
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:34,160
and you say well it's as if it was

1386
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,680
actually happening well that's because

1387
00:49:38,309 --> 00:49:37,520
when it actually happens it's just the

1388
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:38,319
run

1389
00:49:41,829 --> 00:49:39,839
of the game or the simulation that

1390
00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:41,839
you've decided to be in it's not that

1391
00:49:45,750 --> 00:49:43,920
different like a potential run of the

1392
00:49:48,549 --> 00:49:45,760
simulation isn't that different from

1393
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:48,559
what is it is actually run

1394
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,000
and so i think the metaphor actually

1395
00:49:53,230 --> 00:49:52,000
works pretty well as a way to understand

1396
00:49:56,549 --> 00:49:53,240
now it's not

1397
00:49:59,109 --> 00:49:56,559
exactly that because you say well in

1398
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,119
video game i'm a physical person outside

1399
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:01,440
of the game so am i a physical person

1400
00:50:06,549 --> 00:50:04,480
outside of our simulation right or am i

1401
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,559
just pure consciousness well that

1402
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:08,240
depends right

1403
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:10,160
when people talk about a near-death

1404
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:11,200
experience

1405
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:12,880
or they remember

1406
00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:15,839
the the in between state

1407
00:50:18,870 --> 00:50:17,440
they all describe it similarly but

1408
00:50:20,230 --> 00:50:18,880
differently right

1409
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,240
some people describe something that

1410
00:50:24,150 --> 00:50:21,839
looks like heaven some people describe a

1411
00:50:25,910 --> 00:50:24,160
city some people describe a garden well

1412
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:25,920
those are just additional simulations

1413
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:27,680
right that's why they can be different

1414
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:30,160
and so you know i i guess there is in my

1415
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:32,960
opinion you know a hierarchy of these

1416
00:50:38,309 --> 00:50:35,599
types of simulations that get created

1417
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:38,319
for us and in the end yeah it probably

1418
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:41,520
goes back to pure pure consciousness

1419
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:43,359
we were all connected trying to have an

1420
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:44,400
experience

1421
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:46,079
why do we play video games in the first

1422
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:48,400
place this is a question i like to ask

1423
00:50:52,950 --> 00:50:50,640
when people say what's the point of of

1424
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:52,960
having a simulation there's two two main

1425
00:50:55,829 --> 00:50:54,640
reasons we play video games or run

1426
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:55,839
simulations

1427
00:51:00,069 --> 00:50:58,000
one is to see what would happen if we

1428
00:51:02,390 --> 00:51:00,079
run simulations with different variables

1429
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:02,400
and the second is to have experiences

1430
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:04,480
that we can't have outside of that

1431
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:06,559
environment like i can't fly in a dragon

1432
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:08,960
in this particular physical reality i

1433
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,880
can do it inside a video game so it's

1434
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:12,640
possible that you know what we're

1435
00:51:16,470 --> 00:51:14,640
experiencing here in this reality is

1436
00:51:18,549 --> 00:51:16,480
something that we can't experience

1437
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:18,559
outside and we need to embody ourselves

1438
00:51:21,910 --> 00:51:20,400
to run the simulation so yeah i mean i

1439
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:21,920
do think there is some kind of a

1440
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:24,559
hierarchy uh that goes on i i can't

1441
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:26,559
claim to have the exact answers for what

1442
00:51:29,670 --> 00:51:27,920
that looks well you're talking about god

1443
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:29,680
now i mean you're talking about god if

1444
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:31,200
there's a hierarchy of consciousness

1445
00:51:37,109 --> 00:51:34,880
that's just code speak for god

1446
00:51:38,390 --> 00:51:37,119
eventually there's some entity or kind

1447
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,400
or thing

1448
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:40,880
that we are all a part of that is

1449
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:43,359
running this simulation now people say

1450
00:51:46,230 --> 00:51:44,319
well

1451
00:51:48,150 --> 00:51:46,240
you know who are the simulators and i

1452
00:51:49,829 --> 00:51:48,160
say well first of all it could be us

1453
00:51:51,030 --> 00:51:49,839
right it does it doesn't have to be like

1454
00:51:53,109 --> 00:51:51,040
you know one

1455
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:53,119
simulator we could each be having

1456
00:51:57,109 --> 00:51:54,880
experiences because we're all running

1457
00:51:59,349 --> 00:51:57,119
this as players but you're right i think

1458
00:52:01,589 --> 00:51:59,359
if you take that metaphor further you do

1459
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:01,599
end up with some kind of single

1460
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:03,680
consciousness or spurs

1461
00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:06,400
eventual simulator if you will that is

1462
00:52:11,190 --> 00:52:09,520
akin to what some people call god

1463
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:11,200
i mean i think the big question that

1464
00:52:16,150 --> 00:52:13,520
we're kind of struggling with and i just

1465
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,160
like i think you're adding so so much to

1466
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:18,559
the discussion in a really important way

1467
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:19,440
of

1468
00:52:24,309 --> 00:52:22,559
you're grounding it in a way that

1469
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:24,319
we're familiar with or at least think

1470
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:26,319
we're familiar with because we think we

1471
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:27,359
know how

1472
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:28,880
computers work

1473
00:52:32,790 --> 00:52:31,200
but the big question like i studied uh

1474
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:32,800
near death experience for the longest

1475
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,920
time and if you look at all the books

1476
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:37,520
on and on and on they're talking about

1477
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:38,880
evidence and evidence and evidence and

1478
00:52:42,309 --> 00:52:40,400
there's this big battle between science

1479
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:42,319
and consciousness extend beyond bodily

1480
00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:44,640
death but if you get past that and you

1481
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:46,559
look at the account overwhelmingly

1482
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:49,119
statistically number one thing

1483
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:52,079
love number one thing connection number

1484
00:52:56,510 --> 00:52:54,800
one thing uh

1485
00:53:02,790 --> 00:52:56,520
spirit

1486
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:02,800
doesn't really conform very well seems

1487
00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,599
to seems to not fit as comfortably in

1488
00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:07,760
some of those models what people are

1489
00:53:11,270 --> 00:53:08,960
saying

1490
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:11,280
over and over again is hey you know what

1491
00:53:14,790 --> 00:53:12,960
religion if that

1492
00:53:17,589 --> 00:53:14,800
if that floats your boat fine but it's

1493
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:17,599
really not about that it's really about

1494
00:53:23,510 --> 00:53:20,880
this connection this feeling of a

1495
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:23,520
connection that is fundamental to who we

1496
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:26,559
are but is obscured by

1497
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:29,839
the game by the simulation and that when

1498
00:53:35,750 --> 00:53:32,559
people get outside of time space either

1499
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:35,760
in near-death experience or in obe or

1500
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:37,760
doing psychedelics or whatever they

1501
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:40,240
immediately see things

1502
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:42,720
differently and there i just think

1503
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:44,480
the metaphor if we look at it as

1504
00:53:48,069 --> 00:53:46,160
consciousness is fundamental and it's

1505
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:48,079
all about uh light and love and

1506
00:53:52,069 --> 00:53:50,640
hierarchy of consciousness it it then it

1507
00:53:53,589 --> 00:53:52,079
looks like we're kind of stretching the

1508
00:53:55,589 --> 00:53:53,599
metaphor to me what do you think about

1509
00:53:56,390 --> 00:53:55,599
that

1510
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:56,400
well

1511
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:57,680
yeah it depends which metaphor you're

1512
00:54:01,430 --> 00:53:59,280
using and exactly how you're using it i

1513
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:01,440
mean for me i i think let's use a

1514
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,960
different metaphor instead of a video

1515
00:54:06,790 --> 00:54:04,000
game

1516
00:54:07,670 --> 00:54:06,800
let's use social networks right which

1517
00:54:09,670 --> 00:54:07,680
people

1518
00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:09,680
use all the time today and creates lots

1519
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,280
of angst but

1520
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:13,440
why do we use social networks we create

1521
00:54:18,309 --> 00:54:16,400
an identity online but primarily

1522
00:54:19,750 --> 00:54:18,319
what makes a social network different

1523
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:19,760
from a website

1524
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:22,400
is the social part of it it's that there

1525
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:25,440
are other people and we define ourselves

1526
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:27,040
by what we are sharing and our

1527
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:29,119
interactions within those people so if

1528
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:31,520
you think about it for a second uh you

1529
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:33,200
know getting away from all the negative

1530
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:35,280
stuff around social networks

1531
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:38,400
the purpose of a social network is

1532
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:40,240
connections right now you can say people

1533
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:42,079
have you know toxic connections they may

1534
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:44,079
have good actions they may have

1535
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,240
spiritual inspiring they may have bad

1536
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:48,880
connections you know uh people get more

1537
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:50,880
anxious when they all these things that

1538
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,480
happen with those connections well you

1539
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:54,400
could be describing life right i mean

1540
00:54:58,150 --> 00:54:56,400
that's what happens in life right if

1541
00:55:00,390 --> 00:54:58,160
we're coming here to have connections

1542
00:55:02,069 --> 00:55:00,400
and experiences with other people

1543
00:55:05,349 --> 00:55:02,079
during that time we have all these

1544
00:55:06,789 --> 00:55:05,359
problems we have anxieties things go

1545
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:06,799
wrong

1546
00:55:10,789 --> 00:55:08,720
but really it's about the connection so

1547
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:10,799
i think that metaphor is a good way to

1548
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:12,799
describe this idea of

1549
00:55:17,430 --> 00:55:15,359
we're all jumping into this thing to

1550
00:55:19,589 --> 00:55:17,440
have these experiences but there is an

1551
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:19,599
element of unpredictability to what

1552
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:21,680
happens because each of us is still

1553
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:24,000
making choices along the way and that

1554
00:55:28,630 --> 00:55:26,000
creates a lot of the friction that we

1555
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:28,640
see in the world in the video game and

1556
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:31,040
in in the social network but perhaps

1557
00:55:35,430 --> 00:55:33,359
it's all you know a carefully crafted

1558
00:55:37,430 --> 00:55:35,440
illusion and and we chose to be here and

1559
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,440
play you know in the game so that's kind

1560
00:55:42,309 --> 00:55:39,280
of kind of how how i think about it and

1561
00:55:44,950 --> 00:55:42,319
so you know if you back up

1562
00:55:47,589 --> 00:55:44,960
you still get to that same place of the

1563
00:55:49,270 --> 00:55:47,599
reason to be here is love but i would

1564
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:49,280
say the reason to be here perhaps is

1565
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:51,839
relationship right it's to to give

1566
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:54,000
ourselves the experience of having a

1567
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:56,400
relationship with different parts

1568
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:59,119
of consciousness which we see as other

1569
00:56:02,789 --> 00:56:00,160
people

1570
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:02,799
which eventually may be all connected

1571
00:56:07,109 --> 00:56:05,280
great let me hit the spiritual angle

1572
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:07,119
from one other perspective you know

1573
00:56:12,309 --> 00:56:09,200
you're always going to be tied

1574
00:56:14,549 --> 00:56:12,319
to the matrix movies whether you want to

1575
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:14,559
or not it kind of connects connects

1576
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:16,000
people to your work i think in a

1577
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:17,920
wonderful way i i think it's really a

1578
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:19,599
positive thing but there's kind of two

1579
00:56:22,870 --> 00:56:21,040
ways to read the matrix you know from a

1580
00:56:24,710 --> 00:56:22,880
spiritual perspective one of the groups

1581
00:56:26,309 --> 00:56:24,720
that really latches on to the matrix are

1582
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:26,319
the gnostic people they go that's a

1583
00:56:30,470 --> 00:56:28,799
gnostic movie that's you know right

1584
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:30,480
create better than the creator guys and

1585
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:33,440
there are some very gnostic themes to it

1586
00:56:37,430 --> 00:56:35,359
and i kind of look at the spirituality

1587
00:56:40,230 --> 00:56:37,440
thing from kind of

1588
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:40,240
i kind of have a western yogic kind of

1589
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:41,920
philosophy

1590
00:56:47,270 --> 00:56:45,359
the western yogis to me are are the best

1591
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:47,280
of combining

1592
00:56:50,630 --> 00:56:48,480
some of that

1593
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:50,640
deep deep wisdom with

1594
00:56:55,109 --> 00:56:53,440
kind of a more current view but the the

1595
00:56:57,349 --> 00:56:55,119
two ways of looking at it i think is one

1596
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:57,359
is kind of the gnostic is this battle

1597
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:58,400
you know the

1598
00:57:02,150 --> 00:57:00,240
create better than the creator gods

1599
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,160
which is

1600
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:04,799
i think that sums up what the matrix is

1601
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,280
about but the matrix is very

1602
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:10,000
materialistic science right they are you

1603
00:57:13,190 --> 00:57:11,119
know

1604
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:13,200
neo really is

1605
00:57:18,870 --> 00:57:16,400
some place and he really is experiencing

1606
00:57:21,910 --> 00:57:18,880
something and then he's experiencing

1607
00:57:23,430 --> 00:57:21,920
a false created reality false maybe is

1608
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:23,440
not the right word you know when he does

1609
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:24,799
this

1610
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:25,760
what

1611
00:57:31,030 --> 00:57:30,160
you're saying that's all maya you know i

1612
00:57:33,829 --> 00:57:31,040
mean just

1613
00:57:36,549 --> 00:57:33,839
you don't even have to engage in any of

1614
00:57:39,109 --> 00:57:36,559
it you are instantly connected and it's

1615
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:39,119
not a matter of uh

1616
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:41,280
it's just a matter of realizing it

1617
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:43,040
it's not a matter of getting anywhere

1618
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:45,040
it's just a matter of accepting that

1619
00:57:48,390 --> 00:57:47,200
that instant connection is there and

1620
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:48,400
that we're going to talk about

1621
00:57:54,470 --> 00:57:49,920
collapsing

1622
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:54,480
collapses everything so what about those

1623
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:56,960
two competing kind of

1624
00:58:03,190 --> 00:58:00,880
spiritual ideas what do you make of that

1625
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:03,200
yeah you know i i find it interesting i

1626
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,200
mean i don't claim to be an expert on

1627
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:06,960
the gnostic you know points of view but

1628
00:58:09,750 --> 00:58:08,240
familiar with some of the the broad

1629
00:58:12,789 --> 00:58:09,760
outlines but when you think of the

1630
00:58:14,950 --> 00:58:12,799
western yogis right i mean one of the

1631
00:58:17,349 --> 00:58:14,960
the yogis from the east that really

1632
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:17,359
introduced you know a lot of the way we

1633
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:20,079
think about yoga and meditation was uh

1634
00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:22,880
yogananda uh you know who came over back

1635
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:24,960
in the 1990s and wrote autobiography of

1636
00:58:28,789 --> 00:58:26,880
yogi i'm actually working on a book

1637
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:28,799
about lessons you know for modern

1638
00:58:32,870 --> 00:58:30,960
seekers you know from yogananda and his

1639
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:32,880
autobiography but i'm writing it here in

1640
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:35,440
the us for harpercollins in india which

1641
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,480
is a whole whole interesting thing uh

1642
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:40,160
you know it's a little bit of the pizza

1643
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:41,680
effect they call it you know how pizza

1644
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:43,599
came from italy to here but then it went

1645
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:45,760
back what we think of as pizza and what

1646
00:58:49,510 --> 00:58:47,520
you find as pizza in italy is not what

1647
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:49,520
was originally pizza there and so you

1648
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:51,839
have this mix you know of east and west

1649
00:58:56,549 --> 00:58:54,480
but you know one of yogananda's points

1650
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:56,559
was and he used a different metaphor it

1651
00:59:01,589 --> 00:58:59,359
was in the 1920s and 30s and 40s that he

1652
00:59:04,069 --> 00:59:01,599
primarily taught and he used a metaphor

1653
00:59:05,829 --> 00:59:04,079
of the the film projector because that

1654
00:59:08,549 --> 00:59:05,839
was you know the new technology at the

1655
00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:08,559
time and and you know he looked at world

1656
00:59:11,910 --> 00:59:10,720
war one you know which went on during

1657
00:59:13,670 --> 00:59:11,920
his lifetime

1658
00:59:15,349 --> 00:59:13,680
uh and said you know look at all this

1659
00:59:17,589 --> 00:59:15,359
suffering and all these things that are

1660
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:17,599
going on and he said well it's like a

1661
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,640
movie right the the movie needs to have

1662
00:59:24,549 --> 00:59:23,280
that there and we are so engrossed in it

1663
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:24,559
that we forget

1664
00:59:29,349 --> 00:59:27,200
that it's a movie and that the players

1665
00:59:32,390 --> 00:59:29,359
are there you know they have agreed to

1666
00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:32,400
be there and go through a lot of that

1667
00:59:36,710 --> 00:59:34,160
for the purpose of having this

1668
00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:36,720
experience so you know personally i tend

1669
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:40,160
to to be more on that side i guess with

1670
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:42,240
you the western yogis or this mix of

1671
00:59:46,549 --> 00:59:44,400
western and eastern uh but you know even

1672
00:59:47,589 --> 00:59:46,559
philip k dick who i reference a lot in

1673
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:47,599
this book

1674
00:59:51,589 --> 00:59:50,160
uh you know we came up with this idea of

1675
00:59:53,670 --> 00:59:51,599
the simulation and the multiple

1676
00:59:55,190 --> 00:59:53,680
timelines he he said well there was a

1677
00:59:58,870 --> 00:59:55,200
programmer

1678
01:00:01,589 --> 00:59:58,880
like they're sitting across the table

1679
01:00:02,950 --> 01:00:01,599
from each other playing chess and one

1680
01:00:05,990 --> 01:00:02,960
would change a variable and it would

1681
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:06,000
change it in time like a while ago and

1682
01:00:09,190 --> 01:00:08,000
that would change everything today and

1683
01:00:12,309 --> 01:00:09,200
you know i found this just an

1684
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:12,319
interesting fascinating another metaphor

1685
01:00:17,589 --> 01:00:15,040
that is a way of looking at things uh

1686
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:17,599
which led me to the mandela effect

1687
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:19,920
you know uh which is about how why do

1688
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:21,599
things change and one of the aspects of

1689
01:00:24,470 --> 01:00:23,119
the mandela effect that

1690
01:00:26,230 --> 01:00:24,480
if you look online is this idea of

1691
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:26,240
scriptural changes like

1692
01:00:32,309 --> 01:00:29,119
is the bible changing like are the

1693
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:32,319
actual words you know with isaiah uh

1694
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,559
about the lion and the lamb and turns

1695
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:36,319
out well there you know that that

1696
01:00:39,510 --> 01:00:38,000
particular verse does not talk about the

1697
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:39,520
lion and the lamb it talks about the

1698
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:40,400
wolf

1699
01:00:44,069 --> 01:00:42,000
and the lamb and yet there are people

1700
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:44,079
who have pictures that they've created

1701
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:46,960
of lions and lambs you know based upon

1702
01:00:50,230 --> 01:00:48,960
this quote that everybody thinks they

1703
01:00:51,990 --> 01:00:50,240
remembers and some people say well it

1704
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:52,000
was actually my physical bible has

1705
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:53,599
changed well

1706
01:00:56,950 --> 01:00:55,359
in the islamic traditions

1707
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,960
you know they actually memorize the

1708
01:01:01,670 --> 01:00:58,880
quran word for word

1709
01:01:03,190 --> 01:01:01,680
and you know one of the the sufi

1710
01:01:05,109 --> 01:01:03,200
leaders of one of the the u.s sufi

1711
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:05,119
organizations was saying the reason for

1712
01:01:09,990 --> 01:01:07,040
that is supposedly there are these

1713
01:01:12,309 --> 01:01:10,000
entities these jinns who don't exist in

1714
01:01:14,309 --> 01:01:12,319
time like you and i do they can go back

1715
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:14,319
and change physical objects in time but

1716
01:01:18,069 --> 01:01:15,520
they can't change your memory

1717
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,079
necessarily and so one of the reasons we

1718
01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:19,920
don't rely on the written text but we

1719
01:01:24,549 --> 01:01:22,160
make sure everybody knows every word

1720
01:01:26,230 --> 01:01:24,559
orally and has memorized it is because

1721
01:01:27,990 --> 01:01:26,240
it may change now that's another

1722
01:01:30,069 --> 01:01:28,000
interesting perspective you know i mean

1723
01:01:32,789 --> 01:01:30,079
i i tend to uh

1724
01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:32,799
you know lean more on the the yogananda

1725
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:36,079
metaphors uh and that perspective myself

1726
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:38,960
but you know it it it all ties together

1727
01:01:43,030 --> 01:01:41,359
the one thing they both agree on is what

1728
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:43,040
we think of as time and space is a kind

1729
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:45,200
of illusion right it's

1730
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:47,040
the meaning of the word maya is a

1731
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:49,599
carefully crafted illusion right if you

1732
01:01:54,630 --> 01:01:51,839
look at kind of the the idiom and what

1733
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:54,640
it actually means uh it's crafted for

1734
01:01:57,510 --> 01:01:55,920
our benefit and turns out that's

1735
01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,520
something you can find agreement on in

1736
01:02:01,349 --> 01:01:59,760
the quran and across you know all the

1737
01:02:02,549 --> 01:02:01,359
major religions and so that's you know

1738
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:02,559
part of what i like to do with this

1739
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,119
metaphor is is find the commonalities

1740
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:07,200
and say we can at least agree on this

1741
01:02:10,630 --> 01:02:08,720
if we can't agree on some of these other

1742
01:02:12,390 --> 01:02:10,640
things yeah yeah that's that's quite

1743
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:12,400
extraordinary you know yogananda always

1744
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,559
has a special place in my heart you know

1745
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:16,640
when i was uh when i was an entrepreneur

1746
01:02:20,829 --> 01:02:18,640
and i started my company at a small ai

1747
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:20,839
company in dallas i was doing the

1748
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:23,920
correspondence classes with yogananda

1749
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,680
you know they went back way back in the

1750
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:27,200
day you know they'd send them to you

1751
01:02:31,589 --> 01:02:30,160
weekly and now i like

1752
01:02:35,270 --> 01:02:31,599
now i live

1753
01:02:39,430 --> 01:02:35,280
seven miles from his ashram out here in

1754
01:02:41,270 --> 01:02:39,440
san diego and every week i uh bicycle up

1755
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:41,280
and do yoga

1756
01:02:45,270 --> 01:02:43,599
looking out over this beautiful scenery

1757
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:45,280
in cardiff and you look at the ocean and

1758
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:48,640
you look right at his incredible um

1759
01:02:52,470 --> 01:02:50,880
self-realization fellowship house that

1760
01:02:54,309 --> 01:02:52,480
he built and they kind of keep it as a

1761
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:54,319
museum and stuff it's a very very very

1762
01:02:57,750 --> 01:02:55,760
special place

1763
01:02:59,670 --> 01:02:57,760
it is in fact i was just there this

1764
01:03:01,829 --> 01:02:59,680
summer as part of my research and so i

1765
01:03:03,829 --> 01:03:01,839
went to the room where he wrote you know

1766
01:03:06,069 --> 01:03:03,839
autobiography of a yogi and it's i guess

1767
01:03:08,309 --> 01:03:06,079
in encinitas there in cardiff and

1768
01:03:09,270 --> 01:03:08,319
they're looking out over the ocean and

1769
01:03:10,470 --> 01:03:09,280
and

1770
01:03:11,670 --> 01:03:10,480
you know so it was quite quite an

1771
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:11,680
experience for me to be there it was

1772
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:14,480
quite fun actually and and just for for

1773
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:16,960
people who don't know i mean

1774
01:03:22,309 --> 01:03:19,760
you talk about a simulated multiverse

1775
01:03:24,470 --> 01:03:22,319
the title of your latest book

1776
01:03:26,470 --> 01:03:24,480
anyone who picks up that book and reads

1777
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:26,480
the first 30 pages

1778
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:28,319
i mean riz

1779
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:30,480
exactly this is your point i guess is

1780
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:31,520
you know

1781
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:35,280
shape-shifting time uh all sorts of uh

1782
01:03:39,910 --> 01:03:37,359
time you know appearing here and then

1783
01:03:41,910 --> 01:03:39,920
bilocating over there i mean it it's

1784
01:03:44,230 --> 01:03:41,920
just writes like a script for what

1785
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:44,240
you're talking about right so it's funny

1786
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:45,599
that you're that you're going to write

1787
01:03:49,589 --> 01:03:47,359
that book

1788
01:03:51,190 --> 01:03:49,599
yeah that's right absolutely and now you

1789
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:51,200
know a lot of the i've always been

1790
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:53,599
fascinated by the accounts of

1791
01:03:59,829 --> 01:03:56,480
the eastern yogis uh with you know these

1792
01:04:01,109 --> 01:03:59,839
different tales of miracles and by

1793
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:01,119
location

1794
01:04:04,470 --> 01:04:03,200
and you know it turns out that you know

1795
01:04:06,230 --> 01:04:04,480
that's not just in the eastern

1796
01:04:08,549 --> 01:04:06,240
traditions in the catholic traditions

1797
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:08,559
right i spent some time speaking with

1798
01:04:13,670 --> 01:04:10,640
you know diana walsh basuka you know who

1799
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:13,680
is a professor of catholic studies at uh

1800
01:04:18,710 --> 01:04:16,240
in north carolina and you know she her

1801
01:04:20,950 --> 01:04:18,720
research you know went into some of the

1802
01:04:23,589 --> 01:04:20,960
uh examples of my location within the

1803
01:04:25,829 --> 01:04:23,599
catholic you know canon uh within the

1804
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:25,839
americas and and europe and somebody

1805
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:28,559
being you know uh a particular nun being

1806
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:31,200
seen by the indians in in new mexico and

1807
01:04:35,750 --> 01:04:32,960
so i've always been fascinated by all of

1808
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:35,760
this stuff and so for me that a

1809
01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:37,440
simulation and then a simulated

1810
01:04:41,829 --> 01:04:39,920
multiverse provides you know the best

1811
01:04:43,589 --> 01:04:41,839
way to bridge the gap between these

1812
01:04:45,109 --> 01:04:43,599
things because one approach that people

1813
01:04:47,190 --> 01:04:45,119
in the science and technology world say

1814
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:47,200
oh that's all nonsense it doesn't happen

1815
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:49,200
and i said well perhaps our

1816
01:04:54,470 --> 01:04:51,680
understanding isn't quite complete but

1817
01:04:56,870 --> 01:04:54,480
this idea of the simulation is one that

1818
01:04:58,390 --> 01:04:56,880
can bridge that gap and that's really

1819
01:05:00,870 --> 01:04:58,400
one of the reasons why i felt compelled

1820
01:05:02,230 --> 01:05:00,880
to spend so much time uh and hopefully

1821
01:05:03,910 --> 01:05:02,240
now in the second book i'm done with the

1822
01:05:05,829 --> 01:05:03,920
topic for a little while

1823
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:05,839
yeah great okay so i want to wrap it up

1824
01:05:09,990 --> 01:05:08,079
but you brought up diana welsh basulka

1825
01:05:11,829 --> 01:05:10,000
and i thought her book american cosmic

1826
01:05:12,630 --> 01:05:11,839
and she was on the show

1827
01:05:14,390 --> 01:05:12,640
is

1828
01:05:16,309 --> 01:05:14,400
i got it what do you think i mean that's

1829
01:05:18,470 --> 01:05:16,319
one of the most challenging

1830
01:05:20,710 --> 01:05:18,480
kind of books you talk about

1831
01:05:23,190 --> 01:05:20,720
screwing with the timeline i mean as

1832
01:05:25,510 --> 01:05:23,200
soon as we introduce e.t the timeline

1833
01:05:27,990 --> 01:05:25,520
looks completely different on this other

1834
01:05:30,470 --> 01:05:28,000
realm of on this other aspect of how

1835
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:30,480
long have we been here how are we part

1836
01:05:35,750 --> 01:05:33,119
of an ongoing

1837
01:05:37,349 --> 01:05:35,760
physical genetic engineering timeline

1838
01:05:38,710 --> 01:05:37,359
that spans

1839
01:05:40,230 --> 01:05:38,720
hundreds of thousands of years when you

1840
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:40,240
look at the genealogical record there's

1841
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:41,920
something going on a lot of things point

1842
01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:44,000
to that and then here comes daniel

1843
01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:47,359
posoka goes yeah i was out collecting

1844
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:50,160
space junk in the desert and then your

1845
01:05:54,630 --> 01:05:52,559
friend jacques villa is carrying around

1846
01:05:57,670 --> 01:05:54,640
you know little bits of spaceships in

1847
01:05:59,510 --> 01:05:57,680
his pocket that says i can't really say

1848
01:06:02,069 --> 01:05:59,520
how this could be engineered or

1849
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:02,079
manufactured in this timeline

1850
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:04,640
so do you even go there or do you just

1851
01:06:08,069 --> 01:06:06,240
kind of

1852
01:06:10,069 --> 01:06:08,079
well i i don't go there so much in the

1853
01:06:12,549 --> 01:06:10,079
new book but in the last book i went

1854
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,559
there a little bit uh because i feel

1855
01:06:17,589 --> 01:06:14,640
like uh there is

1856
01:06:19,750 --> 01:06:17,599
an overlap uh here which is that we have

1857
01:06:21,589 --> 01:06:19,760
to broaden our thinking

1858
01:06:24,710 --> 01:06:21,599
you know when we talk about this et

1859
01:06:27,589 --> 01:06:24,720
phenomenon that it may not be as jacques

1860
01:06:30,230 --> 01:06:27,599
valet you know has said for many years

1861
01:06:32,870 --> 01:06:30,240
is that there's an element of the absurd

1862
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:32,880
and there's an element of staging right

1863
01:06:37,270 --> 01:06:34,559
it's almost like these things are being

1864
01:06:40,069 --> 01:06:37,280
staged for us in some way and you know

1865
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:40,079
when i interviewed jacques for for my

1866
01:06:44,069 --> 01:06:42,000
fur for the for the previous book you

1867
01:06:46,470 --> 01:06:44,079
know he said there were instances where

1868
01:06:48,630 --> 01:06:46,480
people say they saw a ufo coming at like

1869
01:06:50,710 --> 01:06:48,640
a 45 degree angle

1870
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:50,720
you know and he went out and he looked

1871
01:06:53,829 --> 01:06:52,480
at where they were saying it landed and

1872
01:06:56,710 --> 01:06:53,839
despite the fact that there was some

1873
01:06:58,870 --> 01:06:56,720
physical like you know some burned areas

1874
01:07:00,069 --> 01:06:58,880
on the ground he looked at the 45 degree

1875
01:07:02,549 --> 01:07:00,079
angle he said that would have to go

1876
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:02,559
through these massive redwood trees

1877
01:07:06,230 --> 01:07:04,160
right i mean it would literally had to

1878
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:06,240
cut through the trees and they're like

1879
01:07:09,990 --> 01:07:07,839
yeah but i didn't want to say that to

1880
01:07:12,549 --> 01:07:10,000
the other investigators because it just

1881
01:07:14,390 --> 01:07:12,559
sounded absurd right so it's almost like

1882
01:07:17,510 --> 01:07:14,400
the witnesses aren't willing because

1883
01:07:19,190 --> 01:07:17,520
they know we live in kind of a rational

1884
01:07:22,069 --> 01:07:19,200
rationally minded world they weren't

1885
01:07:25,190 --> 01:07:22,079
willing to uh speak about these more

1886
01:07:27,190 --> 01:07:25,200
absurd elements and you know turns out

1887
01:07:28,630 --> 01:07:27,200
well that the fact that perhaps these

1888
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:28,640
things are both physical and

1889
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:31,440
non-physical that they're coming into

1890
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:33,599
our reality and rendering at a certain

1891
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:36,160
point provides an explanation for how

1892
01:07:39,910 --> 01:07:37,920
they could go through physical matter so

1893
01:07:41,750 --> 01:07:39,920
easily and so you know i i don't

1894
01:07:42,470 --> 01:07:41,760
personally you know speculate too much

1895
01:07:44,789 --> 01:07:42,480
on

1896
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:44,799
what these timelines are but i do think

1897
01:07:52,630 --> 01:07:45,599
that

1898
01:07:55,029 --> 01:07:52,640
we have to broaden our perspective

1899
01:07:56,390 --> 01:07:55,039
of what we think that it's just

1900
01:07:58,309 --> 01:07:56,400
you know we know what the universe is

1901
01:08:00,309 --> 01:07:58,319
like i mean the reality is our science

1902
01:08:01,910 --> 01:08:00,319
may only be seven percent

1903
01:08:05,029 --> 01:08:01,920
of what we have to discover which means

1904
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:05,039
90 plus percent has not even been

1905
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:07,520
discovered yet uh and so the multiverse

1906
01:08:12,069 --> 01:08:10,400
idea provides a way to think about

1907
01:08:13,510 --> 01:08:12,079
at least a framework to think about how

1908
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:13,520
these multiple timelines could be

1909
01:08:17,430 --> 01:08:14,880
happening

1910
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:17,440
and how each of these are different runs

1911
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:18,960
or experiments

1912
01:08:23,749 --> 01:08:21,440
of that simulation so i think it ties

1913
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:23,759
you know both in terms of

1914
01:08:26,870 --> 01:08:25,199
ufos

1915
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:26,880
science and of course science fiction

1916
01:08:30,309 --> 01:08:28,560
you know it's a very popular topic these

1917
01:08:32,070 --> 01:08:30,319
days in science fiction with

1918
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:32,080
the marvel multiverse and you know i

1919
01:08:36,070 --> 01:08:34,000
don't know if you saw the show loki

1920
01:08:37,829 --> 01:08:36,080
uh it's all about having these different

1921
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:37,839
versions of superheroes on these

1922
01:08:41,910 --> 01:08:40,080
different timelines uh and so it's an

1923
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:41,920
interesting you know i think metaphor

1924
01:08:47,510 --> 01:08:44,880
that cuts across the worlds of some of

1925
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:47,520
the ufos conspiracy as well as

1926
01:08:51,430 --> 01:08:49,279
more pop culture

1927
01:08:53,110 --> 01:08:51,440
absolutely our guest again has been

1928
01:08:55,910 --> 01:08:53,120
resverk you definitely want to check out

1929
01:08:57,669 --> 01:08:55,920
this book it's already number one as a

1930
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:57,679
pre-release by the time you listen to

1931
01:09:01,030 --> 01:08:58,480
this

1932
01:09:02,950 --> 01:09:01,040
it'll be out the simulated multiverse

1933
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,960
and mit computer scientist explores

1934
01:09:06,950 --> 01:09:04,560
parallel universes the simulation

1935
01:09:09,030 --> 01:09:06,960
hypothesis quantum computing and the

1936
01:09:11,189 --> 01:09:09,040
mandela effect

1937
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,199
fantastic you want to check that out his

1938
01:09:15,349 --> 01:09:13,759
other books which you'll find at his

1939
01:09:16,870 --> 01:09:15,359
amazon page

1940
01:09:19,110 --> 01:09:16,880
the one that we talked about last time

1941
01:09:21,349 --> 01:09:19,120
the simulation hypothesis and then some

1942
01:09:23,990 --> 01:09:21,359
really really cool

1943
01:09:26,789 --> 01:09:24,000
entrepreneur books that have this

1944
01:09:28,789 --> 01:09:26,799
computer science angle which is so great

1945
01:09:31,110 --> 01:09:28,799
because this guy we didn't even talk

1946
01:09:33,349 --> 01:09:31,120
about his experience at play labs but i

1947
01:09:34,709 --> 01:09:33,359
mean he's still an active

1948
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:34,719
entrepreneur

1949
01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:36,400
and he's kind of one of these helper

1950
01:09:40,550 --> 01:09:38,000
entrepreneurs where he's trying to help

1951
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,560
other people who are trying to do this

1952
01:09:43,829 --> 01:09:41,920
and

1953
01:09:45,510 --> 01:09:43,839
make it happen at a time when so many

1954
01:09:46,229 --> 01:09:45,520
people have this angst and stuff like

1955
01:09:48,870 --> 01:09:46,239
that

1956
01:09:49,910 --> 01:09:48,880
this is like an exciting time isn't it i

1957
01:09:52,229 --> 01:09:49,920
mean this is like one of the most

1958
01:09:54,470 --> 01:09:52,239
exciting times in history for

1959
01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:54,480
development of new technology there's so

1960
01:09:57,669 --> 01:09:56,239
many things that are

1961
01:09:59,590 --> 01:09:57,679
what do you think about that rizz isn't

1962
01:10:01,350 --> 01:09:59,600
this a great time for entrepreneurs to

1963
01:10:02,709 --> 01:10:01,360
jump in the game if they have that skill

1964
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:02,719
set

1965
01:10:06,550 --> 01:10:04,560
yeah i think this is you know a great

1966
01:10:08,950 --> 01:10:06,560
time for entrepreneurs and we're going

1967
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:08,960
through a level of technological change

1968
01:10:12,630 --> 01:10:10,800
really that hasn't been seen since the

1969
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:12,640
industrial revolution right you know i

1970
01:10:17,110 --> 01:10:15,040
grew up in detroit and you know i used

1971
01:10:18,709 --> 01:10:17,120
to wonder why does gm have buick and

1972
01:10:20,550 --> 01:10:18,719
cadillac and well they're not these are

1973
01:10:22,790 --> 01:10:20,560
all entrepreneurs who created these

1974
01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:22,800
companies you know back in the day uh

1975
01:10:27,830 --> 01:10:25,040
and today what's happening with you know

1976
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:27,840
networking and with blockchain and with

1977
01:10:31,910 --> 01:10:30,400
virtual reality and with ai

1978
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,920
you know computers are touching every

1979
01:10:35,350 --> 01:10:33,760
part of our lives and so you know that's

1980
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:35,360
where i spent you know good part of my

1981
01:10:39,430 --> 01:10:37,679
career and so now i try to help other

1982
01:10:41,350 --> 01:10:39,440
other folks you know sometimes as an

1983
01:10:43,350 --> 01:10:41,360
investor or advisor through different

1984
01:10:45,590 --> 01:10:43,360
accelerator programs like the one i did

1985
01:10:46,870 --> 01:10:45,600
at mit play labs but yeah i think this

1986
01:10:48,630 --> 01:10:46,880
this is definitely a great time you know

1987
01:10:50,950 --> 01:10:48,640
i always wish i was 20 years younger

1988
01:10:52,790 --> 01:10:50,960
because this is a great time to get back

1989
01:10:54,390 --> 01:10:52,800
in the game man get back back in the

1990
01:10:56,310 --> 01:10:54,400
game yeah i'm getting a little too old

1991
01:10:57,990 --> 01:10:56,320
for that now but uh

1992
01:11:00,149 --> 01:10:58,000
it's a great time for that but you're

1993
01:11:01,510 --> 01:11:00,159
shaping the game too and i think there's

1994
01:11:03,830 --> 01:11:01,520
an interesting

1995
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:03,840
kind of convergence between

1996
01:11:08,470 --> 01:11:05,520
you shaping the game with younger

1997
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:08,480
entrepreneurs and merging with this kind

1998
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:10,320
of expanded world view that you're

1999
01:11:13,590 --> 01:11:11,600
bringing to it

2000
01:11:14,870 --> 01:11:13,600
there's again as we talked about there's

2001
01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:14,880
where these things can kind of come

2002
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:17,040
together naturally you know because as

2003
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:19,199
more people push that envelope they're

2004
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:20,880
more receptive to

2005
01:11:25,110 --> 01:11:23,280
these deeper big picture things that

2006
01:11:27,030 --> 01:11:25,120
you're talking about right

2007
01:11:29,110 --> 01:11:27,040
yeah absolutely and today there's a lot

2008
01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:29,120
of chatter in silicon valley and beyond

2009
01:11:32,790 --> 01:11:30,960
about the metaverse and you know what is

2010
01:11:35,189 --> 01:11:32,800
the metaverse it's a virtual 3d

2011
01:11:37,990 --> 01:11:35,199
environment where we can all interact

2012
01:11:40,470 --> 01:11:38,000
with one another but we can also have

2013
01:11:42,950 --> 01:11:40,480
you know ownership of assets and move

2014
01:11:44,790 --> 01:11:42,960
things around well as that becomes a

2015
01:11:47,510 --> 01:11:44,800
reality we're seeing a science fiction

2016
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:47,520
concept turn into physical reality but

2017
01:11:51,669 --> 01:11:49,760
that ties very much to my idea of

2018
01:11:53,669 --> 01:11:51,679
reaching the simulation point which is

2019
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:53,679
that if we can create something that we

2020
01:11:57,510 --> 01:11:56,000
get so immersed in that we forget about

2021
01:11:59,189 --> 01:11:57,520
the physical world

2022
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:59,199
it's probably already happened and

2023
01:12:02,870 --> 01:12:00,960
that's what ties to all the broader

2024
01:12:05,189 --> 01:12:02,880
discussions we had here about the

2025
01:12:07,270 --> 01:12:05,199
spiritual side of things as well

2026
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:07,280
great awesome way to wrap it up the kind

2027
01:12:11,750 --> 01:12:10,000
of the turing test on super steroids

2028
01:12:15,030 --> 01:12:11,760
kind of uh when we get to that

2029
01:12:16,870 --> 01:12:15,040
simulation point fantastic ris verk has

2030
01:12:18,310 --> 01:12:16,880
been our guest again ris thank you so

2031
01:12:20,390 --> 01:12:18,320
much

2032
01:12:22,470 --> 01:12:20,400
thanks for having me on again

2033
01:12:24,310 --> 01:12:22,480
thanks again to rizwerk for joining me

2034
01:12:26,149 --> 01:12:24,320
today on skeptico

2035
01:12:27,350 --> 01:12:26,159
the one question i'd have to tear from

2036
01:12:28,709 --> 01:12:27,360
this interview

2037
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:28,719
what do you think about the simulated

2038
01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:31,199
multiverse metaphor

2039
01:12:35,350 --> 01:12:32,640
we talk quite a bit about it it's

2040
01:12:38,470 --> 01:12:35,360
connection to science hard science also

2041
01:12:40,870 --> 01:12:38,480
its connection to potentially extended

2042
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:40,880
consciousness as we understand it and

2043
01:12:45,590 --> 01:12:43,440
thirdly its connection to

2044
01:12:46,950 --> 01:12:45,600
spirituality which we all understand we

2045
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:46,960
don't understand

2046
01:12:51,030 --> 01:12:48,719
so let me know your thoughts on that

2047
01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:51,040
question and you know while you're at it

2048
01:12:56,790 --> 01:12:53,760
i would really like to grow the skeptico

2049
01:12:59,510 --> 01:12:56,800
community i would like other people to

2050
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:59,520
hear this interview share these ideas

2051
01:13:02,229 --> 01:13:00,960
you know the show is totally free

2052
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:02,239
there's no paywall there's no

2053
01:13:06,229 --> 01:13:04,080
advertisements all the past shows are

2054
01:13:07,590 --> 01:13:06,239
free i'm never trying to sell anything

2055
01:13:09,669 --> 01:13:07,600
other than

2056
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:09,679
the ideas of the people who come on the

2057
01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:12,960
show and i'd like those ideas to reach

2058
01:13:17,510 --> 01:13:15,600
as many people as possible so

2059
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:17,520
if you can if you think that's a good

2060
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,480
idea

2061
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:20,320
something you can get behind

2062
01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:23,760
please do it in any way you see fit and

2063
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:26,960
if you need some extra ideas then email

2064
01:13:30,550 --> 01:13:29,199
me and we'll figure it out together but

2065
01:13:32,709 --> 01:13:30,560
i think it would be fun to grow this

2066
01:13:35,669 --> 01:13:32,719
community i also think it'd be fun to

2067
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:35,679
grow the skeptical forum community come

2068
01:13:39,669 --> 01:13:36,719
on over

2069
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:39,679
love people that have really really

2070
01:13:46,550 --> 01:13:43,199
smart thinking and are willing to share

2071
01:13:47,990 --> 01:13:46,560
research and ideas not just opinions so

2072
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:48,000
that's really what the skeptical forum

2073
01:13:51,669 --> 01:13:50,000
is about and if you want to come over

2074
01:13:52,630 --> 01:13:51,679
and join us i'd love to have you over

2075
01:13:55,590 --> 01:13:52,640
there

2076
01:13:59,760 --> 01:13:55,600
that's gonna do it for today until next

2077
01:14:04,229 --> 01:13:59,770
time take care bye for now

2078
01:14:06,280 --> 01:14:04,239
[Music]